Talk:Johannes van Damme

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Former featured article candidateJohannes van Damme is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 17, 2023Featured article candidateNot promoted

'Background to Arrest' section

Hi all, this morning I discovered an archived newspaper article (https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19941009-1.2.75.3.1) that throws an entirely different spin on the case. This is the only article I can find online, however I have Googled the DEA agents names and they do infact exist. I have thus created a new 'Background to Arrest' section to capture this information. I know its only one reference for quite a large section of text but hear me out ....

This case has long puzzled me as bits and pieces of the evidence is recorded at different points, without giving the whole picture. The main one was the aspect of Van Damme agreeing to do a job for Obeifuna for $20,000 and his efforts to spin it in a positive light. Foremost, he made a statement to the CNB after he was caught saying he knew there was heroin in the bag and the 20K was payment for transporting it. Then, when that was thrown out by the judge, Van Damme tried to fob it off as payment for allowing Obeifuna onto the board of a company he would soon set up.

I found it strange Van Damme even tried to explain it away, and the court reporting didnt say if this was something the authorities had proof of or if it was something Van Damme volunteered himself. I did find on a Dutch website the snippet: "there was enough evidence to show that he knew what he was doing. There was even a tape recording of a conversation between Van Damme and a criminal acquaintance about this drug smuggling" (https://archive.is/JTfjk) which made me think perhaps it was caught on a telephone wire tap.

On reading the archived Strait Times newspaper article (https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19941009-1.2.75.3.1) it turns out Van Damme and Obeifuna were swept up in a DEA dragnet on another group of USA based drug traffickers, and they were subsequently recorded on tape discussing Van Damme's upcoming trip in Sept 1991. Why this was not covered in newspapers until after his execution ? I can only guess that investigations were ongoing into the US based traffickers and they did not want to prejudice any trials in America. I did originally think it was because it would be deemed inadmissible as evidence, as it was American agents operating in Singapore that captured the evidence, however the above Dutch website declares that it was infact submitted in some form or another. I would also assume that the quality of the recording was not good enough to capture the entire conversation, as the judge ruled that there was not enough evidence to warrant a conviction against Obeifuna (perhapse it caught the 20K reference but it was unclear what it was for).

To summarize, I know the protocol is to use several reference throughout an article but I believe this section warrants an exception to the rule. If required, I could edit it to just have the last couple of paragraphs and begin with "In September 1991, after a tip off from the DEA, the CNB bugged the hotel room of Obeifuna and put him under surveillance ...."


look forward to your feedback ! WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 09:36, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

side note ... I am now also trawling archived Dutch newspapers for more reference articles, such as this one: https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ABCDDD:010870910:mpeg21:a0991 WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 09:36, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have now added 4 separate reference articles from different archived newspapers to the new section, so perhaps its a moot point regarding sources ? I will keep searching for more reputable articles online that are connected to the DEA operation that Van Damme got caught up in, thanks WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 10:33, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
note ... "criminele relatie" would be better translated as "criminal acquaintance" rather than 'criminal relationship ' 80.169.140.68 (talk) 11:54, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Johannes van Damme/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk · contribs) 14:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Ganesha811 (talk · contribs) 16:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Hi! I'll be reviewing this article using the template below. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask them here. —Ganesha811 (talk) 16:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ganesha811 thank you for making the effort to review the article, I put in alot of effort to cross reference everything that went into it, and if you look back on the edits i have made you will see the incremental improvements over nearly 12 months with reference links to various articles & archived documents backing up each part WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 09:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No problem! Feel free to respond to comments below as I go, or in comments up here. I should be done with my initial review in a couple of days. —Ganesha811 (talk) 11:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ganesha811 cool ... regarding "trouble analyzing some sources", i am not sure if you are using an automated tool but quite a few <ref> make use of archived newspapers (such as https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/) that contain microfilm images rather than HTML text, so that would obviously affect automated tools, also for articles behind a paywall i used an archive site (https://archive.ph/) to read the full text, however i used the original URL in the <ref> so as if the archive site is shut down the link is not lost .... feel free to ask questions if u require any further clarification, i am online almost everyday WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 12:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the Earwig tool will have trouble with those, it just requires some manual spot-checking on my part. —Ganesha811 (talk) 14:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
sure thing, i have tried to paraphrase the newspaper reports as much as possible to avoid allegations of plagiarism, also to give a bit of colour to rather dry court reports in some instances 15:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC) WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 15:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try and complete the review in the next couple days, but it may be delayed to Saturday due to the US holiday - just wanted to let you know! —Ganesha811 (talk) 04:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
no problem, take your time, much appreciated WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 07:06, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
regarding my edit "Drug smuggling investigation: reverting to previous heading, so as to match layout of similar articles" ... should i perhaps split into two sub headings under this ? (i.e.) ==Back ground to arrest== // ===American D.E.A. investigation=== / ===C.N.B. surveillance in Singapore=== WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 06:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that would be helpful, yes. —Ganesha811 (talk) 11:48, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
regarding moving the "revelation" to the Incarceration on Death Row section, i think it is disruptive to the narrative, as the timeline suddenly jumps to after the execution and it also appear in the middle of Van Damme trying to get a retrial (on the basis he is innocent or at the very least not guilty) .... it would be better moving back to original place IMO .... WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 14:11, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine - I moved it just because it's not really about his execution. However i see your point, feel free to move it back. —Ganesha811 (talk) 14:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, please check lower/uppercase on "van Bladel" vs "Van Bladel" for the middle of sentences vs start of sentences. I think there's a few that are misplaced. Thanks! —Ganesha811 (talk) 14:21, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
someone changed it to that exact format for Van Damme a while back, i think thats the "proper way" of doing it, so i was just following the rule for van Bladel too WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 14:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
  • The lead is too short for the article. For an article of this length, I recommend at least two paragraphs, about 10 sentences total, giving some more detail of his life, arrest, and execution.
  • Issue addressed, pass.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
  • What is the source for his birthplace and birthdate?
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
  • Yes, it's fine to ignore those.

As this is a recurring issue, I won't list them all, but please go through all the citations and ensure that, where available, the author is given, the publisher is linked, any rehoster is noted (with the "via" attribute of template), and it is archived if possible. Where an ISSN is available, please add that as well.

  • To answer - yes, and I recommend using the InternetArchiveBot tool here.
  • Can we regard Lianhe Zaobao as reliable? I'm seeing some discussion of its editorial policies which suggest it's less reliable due to alignment with the Chinese government.
  • In general, even if given in all caps in the source, newspaper article titles can be given in title case in our citations.
  • Is Guus van Bladel's book a reliable source? I'm unable to dig up much about him beyond what's in the aritcle, but given his closeness to Van Damme and events, it seems more like a primary source than a secondary one.
  • (WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 07:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC) no luck i am afraid, if i must remove Bladel's contributions completely then i think we should withdraw the whole thing from Good Article nomination, but please hear me out ... i consider Guus van Bladel a reliable source as he was interviewed many times by newspapers in both Singapore and Holland, who would not give airtime to people seeking to feather their own nest (such as Joop Spoor). i originally didnt want to include anything from Bladel but the more i read his input the more i realised it added such rich detail to the overarching narrative. i also only included segments that i thought were relevant and were cross referenced with other sources, for example the CRI had warned van Damme off associating with a criminal gang in Nigeria around the time he was an informant & Bladel theorizing how local criminals subverted van Damme into becoming a drug mule. i most definitely left out Bladel's assertion that it was infact van Damme's Nigerian wife who betrayed him & set him up to traffic drugs(https://archive.is/JTfjk), as obviously there isnt a shred of evidence to back up his theory. i also wanted to include "There was even a tape recording of a conversation between Van Damme and a criminal acquaintance about this drug smuggling" as it answers the question of why he clung to explaining the $20,000 payment in court, however although we do have evidence the C.N.B. got a tape recording of van Damme & Obiefuna talking just before he went to Thailand i could not find any other proof that it was played in court during the trial or submitted as evidence at all, so i left it out.)[reply]
  • Where you can, please add the translated article titles in English to the citations - there's a field in the template for it.

Note: Not all these issues have yet been addressed - title case, missing authors/publishers, etc. —Ganesha811 (talk) 14:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC) (WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 07:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC) working on it)[reply]

  • Ok, I'll do a prose review today (usually I just make prose tweaks myself to save us both time) and then put the article on hold for a week and check back in after that. —Ganesha811 (talk) 16:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2c. it contains no original research.
  • None found. Pass.
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
  • released a copy of the telegram that they received from Singapore prison officials is a borrowed phrase from source and should be modified. Earwig finds nothing else but had trouble analyzing some sources. (WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 12:24, 2 July 2024 (UTC) - I have now modified the text)[reply]
  • Hold for manual spot check.
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
  • There is no detail in the article about his early life. His birthplace and date should be mentioned at a minimum. Did he have any siblings? What was his wife's name? Any children?
  • (WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 07:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC) i have made a conscious decision to leave out details about his Dutch family, as from reading various Dutch archived newspapers there seemed to be alot of tension, for example he apparently abruptly left for Africa, as his Dutch wife placed adverts in international newspapers asking van Damme to get in touch with her so she could officially divorce him, there was also a snippet that one of his children was embarrassed with the press attention and the effect it was having on their spouse's business ... like wise i have not gone into detail about his Nigerian family as i want to respect their privacy)[reply]
  • This article is about Johannes van Damme, not "arrest and prosecution of Johannes van Damme". We don't need huge amounts of detail, but if it's already been reported in reliable sources, it's not violating anyone's privacy. Covering the basic facts of his life is a necessary part of being a GA. Right now the article doesn't even let the reader know he was married twice! Please expand this material so that it is comprehensive. —Ganesha811 (talk) 11:54, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking better, but please add a sentence to the start of 'Early life' saying where and when he was born and raised.
  • The article mentions an appeal from the Dutch government and monarchy - was there any significant reaction from the Dutch public to van Damme's arrest, conviction, and execution? What about from the Singaporean public?
  • (WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 07:38, 9 July 2024 (UTC) taking snippets from some articles, the Dutch public were not pleased and the Singaporeans couldnt understand what the fuss was about, however there was no actual official survey so i think adding the above detail (even with ref links to articles) might be a bit unrepresentative of broad public opinion)[reply]
  • I think we can depend on reliable sources to pull out a decent sample of public opinion, even without a formal survey. I'd add a sentence or two about reaction in both countries. —Ganesha811 (talk) 11:54, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
  • Why the mention of Mat Repin Mamat? Were they the only two executed for drug trafficking in Singapore that year? How many in the 90s as a whole?
  • Issue addressed, pass.
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
  • Beyond sourcing reliability issues discussed above, no other issues. Pass.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
  • Yes - no major outstanding talk page issues or edit wars.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
  • Two fair use images + a non-copyrightable booklet - the Obiefuna image is a little shakier on fair use, but acceptable.
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
  • Any minor tweaks to captions can be handled in prose review. Pass.
7. Overall assessment.
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