Talk:Indigenous feminism

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2019 and 5 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): BethanyKDurham.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2021 and 9 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jimenabisso2, Oliviatherese.

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disputed neutrality

The article is tagged as having disputed neutrality, however, there's no further discussion as to why this has been assigned thus no guidance for how to resolve these issues. Also, the article has been tagged as not citing sources, but there are several, significant sources cited in the article. Many of those are from prominent scholars and authors in the field of Indigenous studies and feminism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.8.33.119 (talk) 21:07, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

The clarity of the first paragraph under "effects of colonization" could be improved. Has anyone considered a rewrite, perhaps replacing the direct quotes with a summary of the ideas contained within them? As a starting point, I suggest replacing the opening sentence (Before colonization, American Indian women shared a significant role within their communities) with: "Before colonization, Indigenous women played a crucial role in their communities." Conchademar (talk) 22:05, 12 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Conchademar (talk • contribs) 22:04, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello Conchademar, I agree that the "effects of colonization" section could be improved. I have some research I can input that will add more evidence to that section. I think the section focuses too much on colonization in general rather than the role of colonization in disempowering indigenous women. I will make edits soon!

--BethanyKDurham (talk) 23:58, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Lede

@Justbreathetee: The lede needs to be kept to a manageable size. We go into more details, and into more depth, in the sections throughout the article. In cases where an article like this is a subset, like Feminism, we link to the broader article, rather than restating the entire thing, except where we are discussing how this subset is a variant. Look at how citations are formatted, with the name used, not the full citation repeated for each use. Best, - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 19:36, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Questions about deleting content about equal rights and pay

Connection of Celeste Liddle/wage disparity to indigenous feminism

The two paragraphs under the "Critique of white feminism" section discussing Celeste Liddle and wage/voting rights may need to be deleted or reworked:

"One such example of the need to incorporate uniquely Indigenous perspectives is in the second wave's struggle for wage parity with their male counterparts. Celeste Liddle argues that "for example, whilst equal pay is important for all of us, for many years Aboriginal people were historically not paid for their labour at all."[16] Therefore, the second wave's fight for wage equality (among other issues), was perceived to push the rights of Indigenous women to the periphery.

Another such example is in the length of time taken to achieve certain rights. For example, while white women deemed to be citizens of Canada were granted the right to vote in 1918, other women were not allowed the right to vote until much later. Aboriginal women in Canada were not allowed to vote until the 1960s, at which time the second wave of feminism had moved away from such issues."'

This section seems to focus more on white mainstream feminist issues than priorities of indigenous feminism. Equal wages and voting rights are not the main focus of indigenous feminists. Also, indigenous feminists themselves would likely not associate with the "wave theory" of mainstream feminism. This section would be more helpful if it were rewritten to talk more about the essential connection between gender and colonialism generally excluded by white feminists, or land rights issues.

--BethanyKDurham (talk) 05:43, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

I beg to differ. The issue of wage disparity was just touched on a couple of weeks ago by Deb Haaland https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/23/deb-haaland-native-american-women-pay-gap-even-bigger-heres-a-way-to-fix-it.html. Equal pay is absolutely a priority of indigenous feminism. I'm interesting in hearing why you do not believe this is something of little import to us. Gaining the right to vote was imperative. Indigenous girl (talk) 01:32, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Minnie Grey block quote in "Critiques of white feminism" section

In this section, there is a block quote citing Minnie Grey that states,

"We, as Inuit women, have been striving for such things as equal pay for equal work, equal share of roles for the good of the family, equal rights to participate in the decision-making processes of our governments, equal rights for the hiring of women at all levels of commerce and science, equal rights in education, and most importantly, equal rights to raise our children in safe, healthy, and positive conditions. This means, among other things, above the poverty line. I look at these aspirations not as women's liberation, but as people's liberation. In fact, we need and love our men, and similarly, we need to liberate them from the concepts that bind them to unbreakable traditional roles that, in turn, keep the status quo intact in many regions of the world."

I'm concerned that this quote skews the priorities of indigenous feminism. Although the quote isn't inaccurate, it focuses more on "equal rights" for indigenous women rather than de-centering colonization. This isn't necessarily the goal, as indigenous feminists strive to develop new models of nationhood and governance, rather than gain civil rights or equality. Could this be quote deleted or edited?

--BethanyKDurham (talk) 16:58, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand the problem. Indigenous Feminism is not single-issue, as the article makes clear. I did a line edit for more clarity in the section (one hopes). It could use more sourcing and a more global view, but I don't see a need to cut or compress it. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:07, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Doing some more cleanup, as I hadn't realized how much had been changed. Please note for those who never left their communities, they don't need to "reclaim" their "Indigenous Identities". And though Andrea Smith has written some brilliant things, she is not Indigenous herself. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:12, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi BethanyKDurham, please take a look at WP:REFACTOR when you have time. I reverted the discussion that you deleted because it is a beneficial discussion and can be helpful to future editors of the article. We can always close the discussion if there is consensus to do so. Thanks :) Indigenous girl (talk) 14:07, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Didn't know. Sorry.

--BethanyKDurham (talk) 17:09, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

No worries. It's fixed so it's all good. Indigenous girl (talk) 17:42, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Creation of additional sections/pages

This would be an extensive work effort, but I have a suggestion for better organization of this page. It's a way we could avoid homogenizing all indigenous feminisms. On the page today, Australian/Aboriginal feminism is sometimes talked about as if it's representative of all indigenous feminisms. Under "Activism," Australia has its own section, while other geographic locations do not. This could confuse readers into thinking that Australia is somehow "superior" when it comes to the activism of indigenous people.

To alleviate confusion, something we might want to potentially do is create new sections or pages for different indigenous feminisms. For example, we could possibly create sections or pages on Aboriginal/indigenous Australia feminism, Latin American indigenous feminism, etc. Just so that readers don't get confused about whether we're discussing indigenous feminism as a whole or in a specific place. I think creating a single "indigenous feminism" page is hard, and that's because we have to incorporate so many different histories and perspectives that are unique to every indigenous community, and make it cohesive.

--BethanyKDurham (talk) 16:00, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

There are already Native American feminism and Feminism in Latin America pages (the Indigenous Feminism in Latin America section could certainly be expanded. Creating a new page would contain a lot of repetitious content so one would have to be mindful of that), if you would like to create one for Aboriginal Australian feminism or Indigenous feminism in Latin America that would be great! Having an stand alone Indigenous feminism article is an important starting place that includes 'See alsos' to additional, more in-depth, pages.

The content in the activism section relating to North American could be listed under North American or United States and Canada I suppose. It wouldn't take too much effort (though more than I have time for at the moment and it's something that should be worked on in collaboration with experienced editors). Let's see what the consensus is for doing it. Indigenous girl (talk) 18:25, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

The way this works is we make additional sections based on how much sourced, well-written, accurate, encyclopedic content we have. If there's enough for a section, we make a section. If that section grows large enough for it to merit its own page, only then do we decide to make a new page.

Australia does not have it's own section due to any attitude about Australian Indigenous feminsism, pro or con. It only exists because, as I was doing cleanup, I realized that a lot of content that is solely about Australia was, yes, being quoted as if it applied to all Indigenous feminists. So I split it off. That's the only reason. I suggest that we add other regional sections as we add content. We already have the Native American article, so that will mostly be a link to that. I'll include that as an example. But please, let's not duplicate content from the general sections just to have sub-sections, or remove examples from the overview to create them. A readable overview here is more important than making any structural changes. Form should follow content. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:43, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Darcy Leigh

I am not going to remove the Darcy Leigh content as of right now, however what Nation is she from? I saw she was referenced as such in the edit summary. Thanks! Indigenous girl (talk) 17:53, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@BethanyKDurham: These journal cites you're adding. Do they have online versions? If so, please add the links to them so other users can look them over. There are places in the templates for the url links. This is part of making sure the sources are usable for Wikipedia. Thanks - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:47, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Let's find a better source. I just read the article and it is not something I would use. It was almost painful to get through. She is not Native American or FNIM by the way, her area of focus is Nunavut. When she wrote the article she was a politics student at the University of Edinburgh. Indigenous girl (talk) 19:00, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I cut the paragraph containing Leigh as a source and the bit about the Iroquois Confederacy. The six Nations making up the confederacy are not homogeneous in this aspect. Indigenous girl (talk) 19:22, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I cited the wrong person, sorry. Got my authors confused. It should be Sarah A. Nickel and I included the link to it. She is Native, look here https://artsandscience.usask.ca/profile/SarahNickel#/profile. Thanks.

--BethanyKDurham (talk) 19:39, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying :) I posted on your page, Sarah A. Nickel is not Native American, she is Tk'emlupsemc First Nations. Her community is in British Columbia. We need to make sure we are accurate :) Indigenous girl (talk) 20:00, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Clarification/ Re-write

The second paragraph of this article could be more concise. There are many other variations of how Indigenous women exist within their communities besides "holding considerable power" and "living in patriarchal communities", stating it in this binary way seems like they exist only in one or the other way. I also suggest re-writing the next sentence, as I am unsure of what "the home front" refers to? Could be more precise. Thoughts? Eagleresistance (talk) 17:00, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: The Rhetoric of Health and Wellness

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2023 and 1 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mirixcx, Kschweick, Megaloons (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Liliput000 (talk) 13:58, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Fracking Sites and MMIW

I noticed that while the page discusses the rearrangement of post-colonization, gendered power structure in indigenous communities as a whole, there are not a lot of examples given on colonial and patriarchal behavior indigenous woman combat. I was wondering if there was a norm around that or a reason why those don't exist. For example, I would like to add about the correlation between fracking sites/man camps to violence against indigenous women, primarily citing this article. If I were to add about this correlation, should it go under Activism and MMIW or its own section? Perhaps this would instead fall under the MMIW Wikipedia page instead? Megaloons (talk) 14:21, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Please capitalize Indigenous if you are choosing this topic as part of your assignment. Fracking and man camps and the correlated violence is covered under both the MMIW and Man camp articles. If you were to add it I suppose it would go under MMIW or if it is well fleshed out perhaps it could have it's own section under activism. It would be preferable if you chose an Indigenous journalist/author rather than someone who is non-Native. There are plenty of Native people who have written on the topic. I did take a peek at y'alls sandbox. Please don't add disinformation such as Indigenous peoples were/are historically matriarchal etc. That type of woo is not factual and does not benefit the 'pedia. I would also be cautious regarding the 2S content that you add. Additionally, We R Native is not a reputable or reliable source. While Summer may be Native, many of the contributors to the site are questionable. While her commentary is okay, it is extremely lacking in equity, which is foundational. Indigenous girl (talk) 22:35, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Creation of additional pages/sections

In my research, I noticed that indigenous feminism puts a large focus on reinstituting traditional matriarchal structures and dismantling western gender binaries. I'm considering adding a section, something along the lines of "Reclaiming Gender Binaries," that talks about this aspect. It would include Two-Spirit individuals, traditional matriarchal foundations, the traditional four genders, the matriarchy today, indigenous queerness, and the intertwined nature of indigenous bodies and colonization. Kschweick (talk) 14:35, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Be very careful with your text and sourcing here. I would not call a section "Reclaiming Gender Binaries". Concepts of sex and gender can vary quite widely between Indigenous communities. Read the sources in the Two Spirit article. Many traditional people never accepted this 1990 urban neologism (2S). Many tribes do not have "traditional matriarchal foundations", and what you refer to as "the traditional four genders" is not universal. There are only some communities who conceptualize it that way. Make sure you use Indigenous sources who are recognized as authoritative by their Indigenous communities, as some of what you've said above are misconceptions that appear in writings by non-Native LGBT writers, or LGBT academics in queer studies who are known pretendians. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:13, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Elaborating on effects of colonization section

The effects of colonization section could be elaborated on more/split into subsections. Things such as poverty and legislation are only discussed briefly (legislation could even be moved to the 'Activism' section). There are other tangible effects of colonization on indigenous women that I don't see much detail on, especially those having to do with healthcare/the medical industrial complex, and how indigenous women's wellness might be viewed differently as a result of colonization. I would split this section into subsections so that these effects can be elaborated on, while maintaining the current historical background provided in the section --> however, I would also try to elaborate on this section, so that readers can be clarified about what "economic, political, and spiritual power granted to women in Indigenous communities" really entailed/how that was threatening to colonizers. Mirixcx (talk) 14:47, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Please see the replies Indigenous girl and I left to the two other student editors above. Looking at your sandbox, I am a bit concerned that you may not have read the guidelines about the differences between editing an existing Wikipedia article like this one, vs starting a brand new article. Anything you add must be in collaboration with other editors in good standing, not a new article you write with other students and try to use as a replacement for an existing article that has been developed over years by consensus in the Wikipedia community. I will also stress that there is no need to use non-WP:RS student blogs and unsourced websites when reliable sources by Indigenous (capitalized, btw) scholars exist. Also be aware of WP:COATRACK, as some of what you're proposing is already covered in other articles. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:12, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Please capitalize Indigenous if you are choosing this topic as part of your assignment. I'm not sure you all understand what Indigenous feminism is. I'm not trying to be demeaning or critical. Clearly at least one member of your working group is not familiar with legislation, I had to correct an erroneous edit earlier. You mention - 'There are other tangible effects of colonization on indigenous women that I don't see much detail on, especially those having to do with healthcare/the medical industrial complex, and how indigenous women's wellness might be viewed differently as a result of colonization.' - here is where we differ. As an Indigenous feminist, my concern is not about how healthcare/the medical industrial complex affects Indigenous women, it is how it impacts Indigenous and other marginalized people as a whole. It's not about me and how only I am impacted, or only about women and how we have been impacted, it is how our communities have been impacted as a whole and what we can do to make concrete changes, preferably by using a decolonizing framework. I am concerned about the sources your group has chosen, one is neither reputable nor reliable and the other was written by a non-Native when we are discussion Indigenous feminism and there are many pieces written by reputable Indigenous writers available. Indigenous girl (talk) 23:31, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, looking at your sandbox, you propose starting a section: "A fundamental aspect of indigenous culture"... In addition to the caps issue, there are many Indigenous cultures. Any source that incorrectly states or even just implies there is just one, or that tries to lump diverse cultures together, let alone make the claim that all are or were once matriarchal, is not a reliable source. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello! Thank you so much for your points - I wanted to further delineate the Effects of Colonization section because it was a very large chunk of tex. Additionally, most of the content in this section focuses on the social/political/economic effects of colonization on Indigenous women, so would you propose rewriting the section to encompass the effects of colonization on Indigenous peoples? That's the only reason I wanted to add a section about Indigenous women and healthcare, since the section is already focused on the effects of colonization specifically on Indigenous women.

I plan on adding the sections I have drafted pertaining to this specific section to my sandbox - all of my sources will be from Indigenous authors. Mirixcx (talk) 16:55, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm still seeing WP:COATRACK and sourcing issues, as mentioned above and on your user talk. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:46, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Mirixcx, Quo Li Driskill really needs to be removed from your work in progress. pretendians have no place in Indigenous articles. Please reconsider the amount of WP:COATRACK issues there are in your sandbox. You are still using We R Native even though it is not a reliable source. I haven't peeked at your other sources yet. Thanks so much for fixing the capitalization issues! Indigenous girl (talk) 16:19, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

@CorbieVreccan @Indigenous girl thank you both for your concerns! This may be due to being a Wikipedia newbie but my sandbox has my entire group's content. I mentioned in my initial reply that I had specifically added content pertaining to the Effects of Decolonization section in my sandbox, and had originally asked for feedback on whether the information I added to this section was relevant, given the focus on Indigenous women in the section. I will make sure to pass along your concerns to my group members to let them know about their sources. Since the three of us are all focusing on different sections, it's difficult to know which parts you are you referring to when you talk about being off-topic/tangential to the subject matter. Thank you again for pointing out the sourcing issues! Mirixcx (talk) 02:28, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Student editors, if you want to post your work on Wikipedia, you need to follow the procedures and policies that all Wikipedians abide by. This means engaging on article talk when editors here have questions for you or issues with your attempted contributions. Wikipedians in good standing, like Indigenous girl, should not have to chase you down in your sandboxes to get you to engage. Policy applies to everyone. Best, - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:15, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Elaborating on 'Gender Relations within Indigenous Communities'

Hi!

Within the new section 'Gender Relations within Indigenous Communities,' under "Effects of Colonization," I think there is still room to discuss Indigenous feminism in relation to western ideas of gender roles that continue to exist today. Unfortunately I have not been able to find sources that are completely pretendian free, but would support anyone continuing to work in this section if they get the chance. There are some initial ideas in my sandbox for anyone who hopes to elaborate on this idea. Kschweick (talk) 18:01, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

If the sources don't exist, it doesn't belong in the article. Anyway, there are already articles on those topics, as we've mentioned above. Maybe we need to focus on cleanup and source-vetting on those, instead. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:23, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

'Gender Relations within Indigenous Communities' continues to be problematic. Kyrölä and Huuki's Re-imagining a Queer Indigenous Past: Affective Archives and Minor Gestures in the Sámi Documentary Sparrooabbán uses pretendian sources and make it quite clear that they are not Sámi by putting a colonial spin on Sámi culture. They also use Driskill as a source. Indigenous Feminism Is Our Culture references a highly problematic pretendian. In Good Relation: History, Gender, and Kinship in Indigenous Feminisms is a book review. Regarding Mental Health and Canadian Society: Historical Perspectives., are you sure that you have the authors right? I believe the correct authors are James E. Moran and David Wright. I think it best that the content not be added to the article. Indigenous girl (talk) 23:15, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 8 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Aislinb (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Brittneynavarro101.

— Assignment last updated by ACHorwitz (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Culture

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2023 and 18 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kathye9904 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Vanessaamartinez (talk) 20:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)