Talk:Holy Sonnets

Why does this article refer to the 1633 collection as Songs and Sonnets? That book was called Poems With Elegies on the Authors Death (no possessive apostrophe). The Songs and Sonnets of John Donne is a collection put together in the 20th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.32.140.63 (talk) 23:26, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Revision proposal 02JUL13

I've had this article on my radar for a while, and wrote/expanded the lede earlier this year. I would like to do the following:

• I would like to remove the section on "index of first lines" since this is accomplished by the table in the comparison section and the two sections are rather redundant. I would do some small emendations to the table, and explain more about the differences between versions in the publication history section above.
• I intend to add a larger section on themes and interpretations, as well as critical analysis both in Donne's time as well as modern criticism.
• I intend to turn the adaptation and quotation section into a larger section on legacy of Holy Sonnets--their influence on other later writers, where Donne was influenced, where Holy Sonnets and Donne's work fits amongst the metaphysical poets. This section would then expand the A&Q list into a paragraph or two on the subject of Britten, and the Manhattan Project (Trinity), etc, and move it away from a bullet-point WP:IPC list.
• per WP:CITEVAR, I ask other contributors if they mind if I change the citation style from the short footnotes to extended footnotes using Chicago/Turabian. I prefer doing the citations manually (i.e. not employing cite templates), although I have found the {{rp}} template more useful in repeated citations than the short-footnote style. As I proceed, it would make my contributions easier. If I do not hear any objections in the next few days, as I begin to proceed, I'll consider there are no objections.

Thanks.--ColonelHenry (talk) 20:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

List of first lines

Original sequence

1. Thou hast made me, and shall thy work decay
2. As due by many titles I resign
3. O might those sighs and tears return again
4. Father, part of his double interest
5. O, my black soul, now thou art summoned
6. This is my play's last scene, here heavens appoint
7. I am a little world made cunningly
8. At the round earth's imagined corners, blow
9. If poisonous minerals, and if that tree
10. If faithful souls be alike glorified
11. Death be not proud, though some have called thee
12. Wilt thou love God, as he thee! then digest

Westmoreland sequence

1. Thou hast made me, and shall thy work decay
2. As due by many titles I resign
3. O might those sighs and tears return again
4. O my black soul! now thou art summoned
5. I am a little world made cunningly
6. This is my play's last scene, here heavens appoint
7. At the round earth's imagined corners, blow
8. If faithful souls be alike glorified
9. If poisonous minerals, and if that tree
10. Death be not proud, though some have called thee
11. Spit in my face you Jews, and pierce my side
12. Why are we by all creatures waited on?
13. What if this present were the world's last night?
14. Batter my heart, three-personed God; for you
15. Wilt thou love God, as he thee! then digest
16. Father, part of his double interest
17. Since she whom I loved hath paid her last debt
18. Show me, dear Christ, thy spouse so bright and clear
19. O, to vex me, contraries meet in one

Revised sequence

1. As due by many titles I resign
2. O my black soul! now thou art summoned
3. This is my play's last scene, here heavens appoint
4. At the round earth's imagined corners, blow
5. If poisonous minerals, and if that tree
6. Death be not proud, though some have called thee
7. Spit in soned God; for you
8. Wilt thou love God, as he thee! then digest
9. Father, part of his double interest
10. Batter my heart, three-personed God; for you

Spelling and punctuation as found in Cummings, Seventeenth-Century Poetry.

Crufty WP:IPC stuff

From legacy...who cares?

• The lines "Death, be not proud, though some have called thee / Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so" (HS 10) are often quoted—as, for example, in Margaret Edson's Pulitzer Prize–winning play, Wit (1995), and the movie of the same name.
• The first line of HS 14, beginning "Batter my heart three-personed God", are cited by such artists as Hendrik Hofmeyr

Checklist (AUG13)

Content ideas

• Add section on scansion and sonnet forms (perhaps include a table: poem/type of sonnet/rhyme scheme/metrics)
• Add section on legacy of "Death be not proud"
• Revise and expand "Writing" section to include biographical details (illness, wife's death, crisis of faith while converting from Catholicism to Anglicanism, while considering the priesthood, royal pressure to take Holy Orders), also "why wasn't it published during his lifetime?"
• Cleanup/Revise section on publication history
• Expand "Themes" to include specific passages in specific poems...imagery of the crucifixion/passion, of death and resurrection, anti-Semitism?, divine love. How does this work of Donne fit into the metaphysical school?

Chart with order has troubles

I cannot square the chart of orders with other editions. E.g., the column marked 1635 seems the 1633 order. ABS (talk) 18:13, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The column marked 1633 seems to be the Variorum edition's "Group III" order. ABS (talk) 18:37, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, there are problems with the order. Based on the Variorum and a 1966 article by Ricks, I would say that what the article gives as the Westmoreland sequence is actually the 1912 Grierson edition, which for the first time incorporates into the sequence sonnets 17 (Since she), 18 (Show me) and 19 (To vex). Grierson's order became the standard one for most 20th-century editions. The original order of the Westmoreland manuscript was, however, different (the Variorum is the authoritative source here). I will attempt to correct the table. Pearlmaster1212 (talk) 10:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

The table has been corrected, but I'm still not sure if the 1635 order is what it claims to be. It's certainly the revised order from the Variorum, but I couldn't verify whether it really is the 1635 order. In Experimental Predestination in Donne’s Holy Sonnets: Self-Ministry and the Early Seventeenth-Century “Via Media” Catherine Gimelli Martin gives a different order, referring to it as the one from 1635. Pearlmaster1212 (talk) 15:46, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Got it, the source of the problem lies in misquoting from the Variorum. ABS (talk) was right. The 1635 column is the 1633 order, and the 1633 column is the original order to be found in manuscripts only. There is an additional 1635 order as well, identical with Grierson but missing the three sonnets that he added. Pearlmaster1212 (talk) 17:39, 19 July 2019 (UTC)