Talk:History of Italians in Arkansas

Requested move 4 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved (non-admin closure) Mdaniels5757 (talk) 00:37, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

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• History of the Italians in Arkansas → History of Italians in Arkansas
• History of the Italians in Baltimore → History of Italians in Baltimore
• History of the Italians in Mississippi → History of Italians in Mississippi

– By WP:DEFINITE and WP:CONCISE, the use of "the" should be dropped from these titles because it simply is not necessary to convey the topics of the articles. Additionally, the use of the definite article in these cases is clunky and should not be in use per WP:NATURALNESS. For now, we can disregard the "political correctness" argument that using the definite article to refer to ethnic groups in certain cases is "othering" and a social wrong. While I personally think this argument is compelling, the true test of whether referring to "Italians" with "the" is acceptable can simply be conducted by looking at the wider media: In 2019, news articles mentioning "the Italians" were a minority (30.7%) of articles mentioning "Italians". While that may sound like a lot, consider that this rudimentary search overrepresents usage of "the Italians" because it counts all articles that use "the Italians" as if they only use "the Italians", even if just "Italians" is used more throughout the article. Usage is also skewed in favor of "the Italians" by counting qualified usages ("The Italians who live down the street..."), proper nouns ("In a recent episode of 'Cultures of Las Vegas: The Italians'..."), and other usages which require use of an article. Despite all of this, "Italians" beats out "the Italians" in the media by a 2-to-1 ratio. By WP:COMMONNAME, the titles of the articles should be changed to reflect this usage by the media. Mysterymanblue (talk) 23:26, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support 100% (and Support other similar moves) per WP:DEFINITE, WP:CONCISE, and especially WP:NATURALNESS and WP:CONSISTENT. You wouldn't say "I learned about the history of the Americans", you say "history of Americans" – and this isn't any different! (You're right, it sounds almost pejorative and othering with a "the".) Paintspot Infez (talk) 01:51, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.