Talk:Harissa

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merge Filfel chuma here

Same ingredients, same location, merge variant here--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 06:13, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support the merge. Small differences can be dealt in the merged article. --Maumivi (talk) 13:44, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  checkY Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 12:57, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tunisia-Algeria

The changes provided moved the location of interest from Tunisia to Maghreb but the sources still only concern Tunisia.--ReyHahn (talk) 11:54, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To 2A02:C7C:361C:B400::/64

This explanation is meant for the IP that keeps changing the article:

  • Your addition has been reverted multiple times by multiple editors. This is the first indication that what you're doing is wrong.
  • The infobox is meant for straightforward uncontested facts.
  • The two sources in the article make no mention of the origin of Harissa: the first says that it's found all over North Africa, especially in Algeria and Tunisia; and the second simply calls it a Northwest African Chili Paste.

Hopefully, this is enough to make you stop what you're doing. M.Bitton (talk) 21:29, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Country of Origin should be Tunisia as the UNESCO Inscribed it as intangible cultural heritage.

https://ich.unesco.org/en/RL/harissa-knowledge-skills-and-culinary-and-social-practices-01710 Jalghoula (talk) 12:35, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unesco's recognition doesn't mean "We have found that this thing originates there". They also recognized straw weaving in Belarus, but Belarus is certainly not where straw weaving originated. Largoplazo (talk) 13:48, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Changing the origin of the Harissa after being added to Tunisia's UNESCO heritage

Change:

Harissa (Arabic: هريسة harīsa, from Maghrebi Arabic) is a hot chili pepper paste, native to the Maghreb. The main ingredients are roasted red peppers, Baklouti peppers (بقلوطي), spices and herbs such as garlic paste, caraway seeds, coriander seeds, cumin and olive oil to carry the oil-soluble flavors.[1] Rose harissa, made with rose petals, is also made.[2]

To:

Harissa (Arabic: هريسة harīsa, from Tunisia) is a hot chili pepper paste, native to Tunisia and used in the Maghreb and Middle Eastern regions. The main ingredients are roasted red peppers, Baklouti peppers (بقلوطي), spices and herbs such as garlic paste, caraway seeds, coriander seeds, cumin and olive oil to carry the oil-soluble flavors.[1] In 2022, Tunisia's harissa enters UNESCO cultural heritage list. Harissa, knowledge, skills and culinary and social practices Kais.bd (talk) 10:24, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Neither the reliable sources (RS) nor UNESCO make such a claim. Just like beekeeping in Slovenia, inscribing something on the list doesn't turn whomever bothered registering it into its creator (that's the job of the RS). In this case, the part about UNESCO is already mentioned (where it ought to be) and I see no reason to change it. M.Bitton (talk) 13:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fox news is a reliable and valid source of information for Wikipedia according to this Wikipedia's link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources
According to this Fox News article, harissa is originated in Tunisia. Please find a link to this article:
https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/the-worlds-most-unique-hot-sauces Jalghoula (talk) 11:24, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2022

UNESCO on December 2022 inscribed Tunisia's spicy national condiment Harissa to its list of intangible cultural heritage.

Source: UNESCO list of intangible cultural heritage. 2A02:C7C:373A:B700:B569:E11E:7C3:C089 (talk) 11:42, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Already done That is already included in the article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:24, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2022

country = Tunisia region = Maghreb 2A02:C7C:373A:B700:D1D5:3F29:368D:AFBA (talk) 13:22, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll wait for others to respond as well, but sources that ascribe its origin to a specific country do seem to name Tunisia as that country. [5][6][7] This is different from what the edit warrior(s) have been doing, trying to make it appear that Tunisia is the only place where harissa is commonly found. Largoplazo (talk) 14:06, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
oh apologies, i should have replied here.
Fox news is a reliable and valid source of information for Wikipedia according to this Wikipedia's link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources
According to this Fox News article, harissa is originated in Tunisia. Please find a link to this article:
https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/the-worlds-most-unique-hot-sauces Jalghoula (talk) 18:34, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I made some edits that hope can clarify the conflict. Clearly harissa is very important in Tunisian tradition and that is now reflected in the lead and in the article. The origin remains uncertain.--ReyHahn (talk) 13:11, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for your help. However, i see a persistent pattern of failure to recognise Tunisia as the country of origin of Harissa even though we supplied multiple reliable sources that demonstrate the matter. This also conflicts with other language version pages within wikipedia which henceforth impacts wikipedia as a credible and reliable source of information.
Unfortunately, this is forcing us to question the impartiality of the users and the privilege edit access right that they acquired denying the rest of the contributors to add to the page.
The latest source of information that we supplied was unilaterally rejected with no valid reason. Jalghoula (talk) 14:13, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We want to highlight that the recently added sentence hereafter "The Spanish occupation of Ottoman Tunisia between..." does not make any sense. As when Spain occupied Tunisia it tacitly ceases to become Ottoman. We would recommend leave is as Tunisia instead of Ottoman Tunisia. Jalghoula (talk) 14:21, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have not followed your conversation below. As for the Ottoman Tunisia, it was just an occupation and Ottoman's continued to declare sovereignety over Tunisia, also it is just there to provide historical background.--ReyHahn (talk) 14:35, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your help. Can we please keep the Maghreb as a region of origin and add Tunisia as a country of origin of the Harissa in the current shape and form and the way it's produced? Jalghoula (talk) 15:25, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
this is forcing us to question the impartiality of the users you're as free to question the users' impartiality as they are to question yours, and since you repeated this elsewhere, I'll share with you what I think: 1) unlike you, the users that you're accusing of bad faith are not single purpose accounts. 2) the fact that you keep referring to yourself as us and we is a clear indication that you're either acting with a group or on behalf of one. 3) new editors wouldn't know what a WP:RSP and WP:RPP/D are (see comment above and this diff.
Harissa is made from Baklouti peppers it can be, but it doesn't have to be (any chilli pepper will do).
with regard to Harissa's origin: I remember looking into the subject and the best I could find are mentions in passing. M.Bitton (talk) 22:34, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not share with me any subjective opinion as it'll deviate from the topic at hand and it'll be beside the point. I'd suggest we remain factual and constructive if we want to add value to this page. Unfortunately, so far the conversation was one-sided Jalghoula (talk) 14:59, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Jalghoula, who is "we"? It's hard to know how to respond to your story when I'm responding to you, and, as I've explained to you repeatedly, you've largely provided sources that say nothing whatsoever about the origin of harissa.
Also, the only pattern here has consisted of editors replacing "Maghreb" with "Tunisia" as a description of where harissa is commonly used (which, it's astonishing I have to state this yet again, has nothing to do with its origin), and then other editors restoring "Maghreb" because Maghreb is correct and because claiming that its area of use is limited to Tunisia is incorrect
As far as I can tell, this discussion is the very first one where anybody has been specific about acknowledging Tunisia as the origin of harissa and has provided reliable sources to back it up. Further, no purpose was served by your bellyaching in this discussion. In case you still haven't noticed, I already provided a number of reliable sources to support the requested change myself. Because of the history of edits to the article, however, I chose (as I stated openly) to give some of the other participants in those edits a chance to comment and to come to an agreement about making the requested change. Yet you entered this discussion, which was already running in your favor, with belligerence. Did that really seem like a good idea? Largoplazo (talk) 23:54, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, let me clarify. The ask was not to limit the Harissa to the country of origin. I did not request to remove the Maghreb as a region but instead adding the country of origin as well in addition to the region and i supplied resources that demonstrate that claim. This edit will also introduce some consistency with the other Harissa dedicated pages in other languages such as the French and Arabic. I don't accuse anyone of bad faith. Let's please focus on the topic at hand rather than the users per se. Jalghoula (talk) 10:07, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Largoplazo Also, the claim about single purpose accounts is directly addressed to me and is a clear distraction to not discuss the topic. We're discussing the topic here not the users. Jalghoula (talk) 10:19, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Largoplazo
Please check this link: https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/the-worlds-most-unique-hot-sauces
It clearly says: "harissa originated in Tunisia "
Could you please explain how this is "nothing whatsoever about the origin of harissa"?
Again for clarity, i reiterate, the ask was not to limit the Harissa to the country of origin. I did not request to remove the Maghreb as a region but instead adding the country of origin as well in addition to the region. This is a question of consistency. Jalghoula (talk) 10:15, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton: Have you looked at the sources I provided? By the way, whether it's only a passing mention isn't relevant to an assessment of its reliability. If the CIA World Factbook says only once that Managua is the capital of Nicaragua, I'm going to conclude that it's a safe bet the Managua is the capital of Nicaragua. Largoplazo (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Largoplazo: Thanks for asking. Yes and unfortunately, they are no different from the ones that I have checked before (in multiple languages). In any case, I'll leave it to you and ReyHahn to decide. M.Bitton (talk) 00:15, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Given a few sources that say it's unknown balanced against those, that seem knowledgable and not to have an agenda, that say it's from Tunisia, I was doing more research to convince myself one way or the other—until I came across Craig Claiborne and/or Pierre Franey saying it's of French origin.[8] So I'm actually giving up for now. Largoplazo (talk) 00:30, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm curious as to how the link we provided were deemed as part of an "agenda" Jalghoula (talk) 10:27, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jalghoula: I'm simply not going to respond to you any more. I've just read your last three mentions of me and they're full of you misunderstanding things that I've said. For example, I did not request to remove the Maghreb as a region: I didn't say you requested that. I said that in reference to the only pattern that had been going on in the article. I didn't say you were involved. I'm curious as to how the link we provided were deemed as part of an "agenda".: I didn't say that that link was "part of an agenda". I wasn't even referring to you in that remark. Could you please explain how this is "nothing whatsoever about the origin of harissa"?: I didn't say that the Fox News link says "nothing whatsoever about the origin of harissa". Also, Also, the claim about single purpose accounts is directly addressed to me ...: I don't know why you mentioned the single-purpose account comment to me because I neither made that comment nor reacted to it. Over and over I've tried to correct your misunderstandings of things you've read both in sources and in chats because they keep leading to wild goose chases, but then you find more things to misconstrue in my responses. So it's a waste of my time. Largoplazo (talk) 12:37, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Largoplazo Jalghoula (talk) 10:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Largoplazo In order to pursue a constructive conversation, I'd recommend not deviating from the topic at hand and remain factual. I still have not received a valid reason that would justify discarding the source that were provided. Also, having contributed to other topics would not grant you the right to lecture other users nor abuse the edit access right by declining valid contributions to the topic. Try correct your implicit biases before attempting to correct my misunderstandings because maybe the problem lies somewhere there. Jalghoula (talk) 14:02, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi All,
Please find hereafter another link: https://www.belazu.com/story/harissa/#:~:text=The%20name%20Harissa%20comes%20from,chillies%2C%20salt%20and%20olive%20oil.
"The name Harissa comes from the Arabic verb harasa, meaning ‘to pound’, or ‘break into pieces’. It’s thought to originate from Tunisia, where shoppers in spice souks watch it pounded out while-u-wait. The simplest versions are just the bare bones: chillies, salt and olive oil."
Here's another link: https://www.ebastores.com/blogs/general/harissa-a-delicious-wonder.html
"Harissa originates in Tunisian cuisine"
Here's another link: "https://www.bonappetit.com/story/what-is-harissa"
"Harissa originally hails from Tunisia and has become a cornerstone of many Tunisian, Israeli, Moroccan, Libyan, and Algerian dishes. "
Here's another link: https://www.thespruceeats.com/easy-north-african-harissa-recipe-2394941
"Tunisian in origin" Jalghoula (talk) 10:48, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton @Largoplazo@ReyHahn kind reminder regarding reviewing these sources. If deemed unreliable, could you please provide a valid justification? Thanks Jalghoula (talk) 14:06, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The explanations that were provided don't become invalid just because you don't like them, nor do they need to be repeated ad infinitum to address the same request. M.Bitton (talk) 01:39, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply. I can assure you that i don't have feelings towards explanations. Excuse my ignorance, but i'm still unsure as to definition of the reliability criteria. Could you please help understand based on which criteria we deem a source reliable or unreliable? Thanks in advance for your help. Jalghoula (talk) 11:28, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you questioning me after I supplied sources of my own in support of the request? However (I'm summarizing my current position to give everyone an update, this isn't really in resposne to you), the reason I'm hesitating is that there are also reliable sources that say the origin of harissa is unknown, and, in addition, I provided one here that claims that it's of French origin. At this point, I think it would be fair to say in the article that sources differ—and this situation prevents affirmatively declaring Tunisia to be the country of origin in the infobox.
PS: I found Larousse des cuisines du monde, p. 251: "HARISSA Condiment très fort à base de piment et d'huile, originaire de Tunisie." M.Bitton, I have a preconception, perhaps because of the Larousse gastronomique, that, at least when it comes to food, Larousse is known as a very reliable source. Isn't it possible that Larousse knows what it's talking about, and that sources that say the origin is unknown say that because they aren't aware that the origin has indeed been identified with confidence? Or do Larousse publications not have quite the sterling reputation I thought they had? Largoplazo (talk) 03:42, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply! Jalghoula (talk) 11:28, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Largoplazo: "Larousse des cuisines du monde" is a recipe book, it's less reliable than "Larousse gastronomique" (itself not reliable for anything to do with history, as it's written by restaurateurs, chefs, etc.). I honestly don't know what else to say, given that even the origin of the name is disputed (with some claiming that it derives from "Orissa", the name of the chillies that it was originally supposed to be made of). M.Bitton (talk) 13:52, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jalghoula: why are you continuing to edit war while an ongoing discussion is underway? M.Bitton (talk) 14:57, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not engaged in any edit war. It's the first edit that i introduced based on the sources that Wikipedia deems reliable. Why are you continuing ignoring all the sources that i submitted. That's not what i would call collaborative or inclusive discussion, it looks rather like a monopoly. Jalghoula (talk) 15:02, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes you are edit warring and I'm fairly certain that you did so using an IP (before the article was protected). I have no time for you persistent baseless accusations (If participating in an ongoing discussion is too much for you to handle, then I suggest you find yourself another hobby). M.Bitton (talk) 15:07, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton Again you're resorting to baseless accusations that is a clear signal of your impartiality. Do you think i have time for your entitled behaviour? I reiterate again that my questions were left unanswered. You reserve the right to arbitrate on the validity and reliability of the sources yet you continue to refuse sharing the validity and reliability criteria so that we can engage in a constructive conversations. Instead you resort again to false accusations Jalghoula (talk) 16:24, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton Your intimidations attempts will not distract me from asking legitimate questions about how you arbitrate on the validity and reliability of the sources? I'm sure you'll again manage to dodge the question. Jalghoula (talk) 16:27, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that you are edit warring to impose your POV is undisputed (it's a hard fact) and so is your belligerent attitude that is plastered all over the place, the rest of your nonsense will be ignored as such. WP:RS is there if you want to learn about what constitutes a reliable source (much easier to find than how to unprotect an article, that you somehow managed all by yourself). Please, do me favour and stop pinging me. M.Bitton (talk) 17:16, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jalghoula: as with most users, I may intervene or when I have time and have a clearer picture of what is happening. In the mean time please keep the conversation clear and concise. Please take your time to summarize your point of view (once) and avoid rushing the conversation. This discussion may take some time, please be patient. If you continue with edit wars and creating daily issues you make the discussion harder to follow and difficult to focus on it (reducing the probability of making any useful change).--ReyHahn (talk) 15:11, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@ReyHahn Thanks a million for your neutrality and apologies if there was some rushing in the conversation. Jalghoula (talk) 16:39, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Another cheap shot (in the name of nationalism). I rest my case. M.Bitton (talk) 17:34, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton Please abstain from baseless accusations and from using derogatory expression. Your entitlement got out of hand. This belligerent behaviour don't serve a constructive discussion. I already explained and I reiterate again that your sources that stipulate that the origin is unknown are not reliable the same way you considered the sources that we provided are unreliable. We requested on numerous occasions the reliability criteria but you refused to communicate them. We don't have to maintain or decline an edit just because you decided so. Wikipedia does not work like that. Jalghoula (talk) 15:56, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@ReyHahn Hi, i hope all is well with you. Please find hereafter these links: https://www.belazu.com/story/harissa/#:~:text=The%20name%20Harissa%20comes%20from,chillies%2C%20salt%20and%20olive%20oil.
"The name Harissa comes from the Arabic verb harasa, meaning ‘to pound’, or ‘break into pieces’. It’s thought to originate from Tunisia, where shoppers in spice souks watch it pounded out while-u-wait. The simplest versions are just the bare bones: chillies, salt and olive oil."
Here's another link: https://www.ebastores.com/blogs/general/harissa-a-delicious-wonder.html
"Harissa originates in Tunisian cuisine"
Here's another link: "https://www.bonappetit.com/story/what-is-harissa"
"Harissa originally hails from Tunisia and has become a cornerstone of many Tunisian, Israeli, Moroccan, Libyan, and Algerian dishes. "
Here's another link: https://www.thespruceeats.com/easy-north-african-harissa-recipe-2394941
https://minimalistbaker.com/easy-diy-harissa-paste/
https://www.themediterraneandish.com/grilled-harissa-chicken/
Let me know if these sources are deemed unreliable and what might be the reliability criteria.
Thank you Jalghoula (talk) 16:01, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton Trust me, i don't have an axe to grind here. I think it's unfair to apply selective scrutiny without transparently communicating your selection criteria. We requested these selection criteria for the countless time and you failed to provide any. Jalghoula (talk) 16:09, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Change of country of Origin to Tunisia

https://ich.unesco.org/en/RL/harissa-knowledge-skills-and-culinary-and-social-practices-01710?fbclid=IwAR2adsI1bh6w6DfSGwnFLzdZGa4qETJZfHCSAgrvtIoJcODJpf0TTAlX3IY

Could you please change the country of Origin from Maghreb to Tunisia? MalekTh (talk) 13:36, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I responded to the request you made. You asked for Tunisia to be recognized as the origin of harissa because of the UNESCO designation. I responded to that: that that isn't a valid reason.
As for other reasons, that question is already being considered above, There's no reason to discuss it in multiple places. Largoplazo (talk) 14:35, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We provided two official source links from UNESCO ascertaining the country of origin but the non recognition of these reliable sources seem to be politically motivated as the validity assessment was done unilaterally with no transparency nor participation of other member. Jalghoula (talk) 14:47, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I gave all the proven elements that Harissa is originally from Tunisia. Whereas from your side, you keep pretending without any proof that It is from Maghreb.
Could you please share what are the valid reasons that makes the HArissa being from Maghreb? Otherwise, it is mandatory to put Tunisia instead MalekTh (talk) 15:03, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You're confusing an awful lot of things. First, Tunisia is in the Maghreb. Second, the origin of something and the area with which it's associated today are two different things. Third, the infobox and lead say that it is typical across the Maghreb, not that it originated throughout that region. Fourth, again, the question of whether to recognize Tunisia as the place of origin (based on reliable sources that, unlike the UNESCO sources, actually say so) has already been asked above, and I've already responded to it there, so that's the place to discuss it, rather than scattering discussions of exactly the same question all over the place. Largoplazo (talk) 15:37, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The very basic ingredient that Harissa is made from (botanically classified as Capsicum annuum)is actually found in Tunisia. Jalghoula (talk) 16:46, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please find a link to the official Twitter publication of the UNESCO: https://twitter.com/UNESCO/status/1598257309238849536?t=tRSloaRLPNpc2LZ8BMSPWA&s=19&fbclid=IwAR2yhmlvBh7FhTvS9y6_pjh7OCN9ofvcLB6FboK_4bgkf3T7fwQKxYT0ijA Jalghoula (talk) 14:37, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why did you provide another link to the same development that I already pointed out is irrelevant? Largoplazo (talk) 14:46, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Based on which elements the relevance assessment was conducted? Jalghoula (talk) 14:48, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the utter lack of any mention of harissa's origin in the UNESCO sources that have been provided here. Largoplazo (talk) 14:57, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How come this wasn't called out in the french wikipedia page then? There's a utter lack of consistency here Jalghoula (talk) 16:19, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If no one following the corresponding article on French Wikipedia noticed that these UNESCO sources say nothing about harissa's place of origin, I have nothing to do with that, just as I have nothing to do with what's written on Persian or Igbo or Tok Pisin or Quechua Wikipedia. Largoplazo (talk) 16:44, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Harissa is made from Baklouti peppers that are native of Tunisia. (Please find the link below)
https://specialtyproduce.com/produce/Tunisian_Baklouti_Peppers_18180.php Jalghoula (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And now you're off the subject of UNESCO again. Once again, would you the general discussion about this to the one place above where it's already been raised? Where I've already listed several sources that actually say that harissa originated in Tunisia, without doing what you're doing, which is finding sources that don't say that and drawing flawed conclusions from them? See WP:SYNTHESIS, by the way, about making inferences, as you've been doing, about what sources imply rather than sticking with what they say. Largoplazo (talk) 16:52, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fox news is a reliable and valid source of information for Wikipedia according to this Wikipedia's link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources
According to this Fox News article, harissa is originated in Tunisia. Please find a link to this article:
https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/the-worlds-most-unique-hot-sauces Jalghoula (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You continue to ignore the several times I pointed out to you that the general discussion is happening above. Largoplazo (talk) 17:53, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I did not saw the change of country of origin to Tunisia, despite giving you 36 000 proofs that Harissa is originally from Tunisia, not Maghreb, neither any country nearby nor Ottoman Tunisia (which is nothing).
These are other kind of proofs: https://minimalistbaker.com/easy-diy-harissa-paste/
https://www.themediterraneandish.com/grilled-harissa-chicken/
It seems that you are blind since you do not see all these evidence! MalekTh (talk) 16:03, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then you are equally blind for not seeing all the sources stating that the origin is unknown. Largoplazo (talk) 13:39, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Largoplazo Please abstain from using derogatory expression. Your entitlement got out of hand. This belligerent behaviour don't serve a constructive discussion. I already explained and I reiterate again that your sources that stipulate that the origin is unknown are not reliable the same way you considered the sources that we provided are unreliable. We requested on numerous occasions the reliability criteria but you refused to communicate them. We don't have to maintain or decline an edit just because you decided so. Wikipedia does not work like that. Jalghoula (talk) 15:54, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is no a UNESCO link: Please read again, this is another link: https://specialtyproduce.com/produce/Tunisian_Baklouti_Peppers_18180.php Jalghoula (talk) 10:36, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Capsicum annuum is native to the Americas only. Not a single pepper grew outside of the Americas before humans bought it with them. 95.98.30.247 (talk) 07:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi All, Please find another source indicating that the origin of harissa is Tunisian.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/mordu/ingredients/562/pate-harissa

Does this constitute a reliable source?

Thanks Jalghoula (talk) 19:20, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

Please consider this source within the link hereafter: https://www.linsfood.com/how-to-make-harissa/

It says that Harissa is a Tunisian invention.

Thanks Jalghoula (talk) 08:23, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2022

country = Tunisia region = Maghreb Jalghoula (talk) 08:16, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi All,
Please find hereafter another link: https://www.belazu.com/story/harissa/#:~:text=The%20name%20Harissa%20comes%20from,chillies%2C%20salt%20and%20olive%20oil.
"The name Harissa comes from the Arabic verb harasa, meaning ‘to pound’, or ‘break into pieces’. It’s thought to originate from Tunisia, where shoppers in spice souks watch it pounded out while-u-wait. The simplest versions are just the bare bones: chillies, salt and olive oil."
Here's another link: https://www.ebastores.com/blogs/general/harissa-a-delicious-wonder.html
"Harissa originates in Tunisian cuisine"
Here's another link: "https://www.bonappetit.com/story/what-is-harissa"
"Harissa originally hails from Tunisia and has become a cornerstone of many Tunisian, Israeli, Moroccan, Libyan, and Algerian dishes. "
Here's another link: https://www.thespruceeats.com/easy-north-african-harissa-recipe-2394941
https://minimalistbaker.com/easy-diy-harissa-paste/
https://www.themediterraneandish.com/grilled-harissa-chicken/
Thanks in advance for your objectivity. Jalghoula (talk) 10:42, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: Duplicate request. This same discussion is already been held under a previous edit request. You don't create a new edit request for the same edits every time you come up with a new link in support of the request. The other discussion is the place to offer this. Largoplazo (talk) 11:46, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2022 (2)

I was reading an article about Harissa (a native condiment in my country made traditionally) and i noticed that the Wikipedia article mentions that its a maghreb local paste, which is unspecific. Granted Tunisia is a country in the maghreb region but i dont think you should label it as a maghreb dish or paste, while they have their own variation Harissa is a Tunisian paste and made traditionally only in Tunisia and not the maghreb. Just like pasta is labeled as an italian dish and not European or Mediterranean. Mohamed akkari (talk) 14:48, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: Already being discussed above. Largoplazo (talk) 15:45, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mohamed akkari Hi, i introduced the edit based on sources of information that Wikipedia deems reliable based on the link hereafter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources
Since there seems to be a persistence in appropriating this condiment to the whole Maghreb, my edit might be reverted.
Harissa was introduced to the Tunisian cuisine via the Colombian exchange before the rest of Maghrebian cuisine, yet, there's a persistence in associating this to the whole Maghreb. (It's like associating the cheese Camembert to the whole Europe). There's a unilateral will to vary the scruple based on the interest. Other editors seems to be over scrupulous with the origin yet intentionally less scrupulous when it comes the nation associated with the cuisine. Jalghoula (talk) 14:35, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jalghoula: You know full well that there is an ongoing discussion about this, yet, you decided to push your POV (while insisting on making baseless accusations against those who disagree with you). Frankly, your belligerent attitude is getting out of hand. M.Bitton (talk) 14:49, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton I'm in favour of an impartial arbitration. There's a systemic appropriation of anything that is Tunisian to Maghrebi. Tunisian cuisine becomes Maghrebian cuisine, Tunisian Arabic becomes Maghrebian arabic. Jalghoula (talk) 14:57, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton This sentence does not make any sense "The origin of harissa goes back to the importation of chili peppers into Maghrebian cuisine by the Columbian exchange, presumably during the Spanish occupation of Ottoman Tunisia between 1535 and 1574." Instead it should be "the importation of chili peppers into Tunisian cuisine by the Columbian exchange" Jalghoula (talk) 14:59, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is no reason for it to be that way. Like I said, even the origin of the name is disputed (with a historian saying that it comes from "Orissa", the original chilli pepper that it was made of). M.Bitton (talk) 15:02, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi All, Please find below a new link : https://ormidalels.com/h-is-for-harissa/

Within this link, it specifies that the origin is Tunisian.

Would that constitute a reliable source? Jalghoula (talk) 19:12, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

|answered=no Jalghoula (talk) 11:03, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Country tunisia

Harissa is condiment from country tunisia 195.68.72.87 (talk) 16:18, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Country of origin is Tunisia.
Source Léo Pajon from Le Monde
Link to the source: https://www.lemonde.fr/le-monde-passe-a-table/article/2023/06/01/harissa-quand-le-piquant-devient-gourmand_6175756_6082232.html Jalghoula (talk) 10:54, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you've forgotten all the previous discussions where it was ascertained that different sources say different things on this subject? So you've found exactly one more source that says specifically "Tunisia"—does that cancel out everything that was said before? Largoplazo (talk) 11:10, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The recipe is Tunisia, mentioning it as "Maghreb" is a form of an amalgam based on regional origina as if all people from North Africa are the same and have the same dishes without giving any consideration to the diversity of the region

The dish is specific to the cap bon region, in northern tunisia, with specific spices to the original recipe such as Ras Hanout (combination of coriander and corvi) and the baklouti pepper. Plus, the dish is listed as a tunisin intangible national heritage in UNESCO, and no other country beside Tunisia has ever claimed the origin of the recipe, plus the oldest mentions of harissa in history books are present only in tunisia through books of Tunisian historians like Hussein Koça who mentions how people from Nabeul eat grenade fruits to attenuate the effect of harissa, and Ahmed Ibn Abi Dhiaf who mentions harrissa when The origin of "Baklouti" name, which was given to the harissa pepper and the effect of spices over names in the cap bon region, both writers are from the 17th and 18th century. ibn Abi Dinar, a tunisian historian from the 16th century also mentions harissa as a cap bon recipe. there are no historic mentions, earlier or later, of harissa in any other maghrebi country. plus, also, several typical tunisian traditions, which are not present in any other maghreb region, like the Aoula, where people collect spices and pepper and dry them for harissa, date from the 16th century, are directly associated to harissa . and the INP, the official patrimoine and heritage authority in Tunisia, is the only authority in the 5 maghreb countries that claims and cites has harissa as a local traditionnal dish, no ither authority from morocco, algeria, libya or mauritania ever cited harissa. There are absolutely zero sources, writings, books, articles or tangible and relevant sources that mentions the "maghreb" as the origin, this is based on an amalgam between general maghreb shared heritage, and specific traditions, and was decided at first by people who likely had very limited information on the region without taking into consideration the huge diversity of the region, especially that the region of Cap Bon, which was part of the state of Tunis, has a very different history and culture from the other historic maghrebi states, as this region is predominantly ottoman and spanish, while neighbouring states like le kef or constantine where Kabyle/berber, and other like Mahdia and Kairouan where arabic, and the southern parts like tripoli where amazigh, with very different culinar tradition, and little to no shared heritage, the wikipedia moderators holding to the "maghreb" label should take into consideration the historical diversity of the region before randomly labelling traditions in a way that gives the impression that they are seeing us as "all the same" while we're not. 41.227.116.185 (talk) 12:03, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wish people would stop bringing up the UNESCO designation. It has nothing to do with the origin of an item. In its own explanation of the significance of inclusion on the list, UNESCO not only doesn't mention being the place of origin among the criteria for selection, but makes it clear in the "Inclusive" paragraph that place of origin isn't a consideration. Largoplazo (talk) 13:25, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can you supply links or, failing that, bibliographic citations, rather than just the names of authors, for any of the sources you've referred to? In the meantime, Pierre Franey has written that harissa is of French origin.
Nobody is lumping together the diverse cultures when observing that, in fact, harissa is found among those diverse cultures.
By the way I'm in agreement with you that, Franey's bizarre declaration aside, there are no sources that specify an origin other than Tunisia. There are those that say it's unknown. There's no justification for saying the origin is Maghreb. We should say one of "unknown" or "Tunisia" or "disputed". In my remarks above, I've meant only to respond to a couple of particular arguments that are flawed or irrelevant. Largoplazo (talk) 13:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As I mentioned in the previous discussion, even the origin of the name is disputed with at least two sources (one of which is written by a historian) saying that it originates from Orissa (Odisha). M.Bitton (talk) 14:30, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If we're going to factor that into the question, then the answer is that we should have "unknown" or "disputed" instead of "Maghreb". Largoplazo (talk) 16:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The origin of the name is north african arabic, هريسة harissa is coming from harras هرس which means to crumble or crush, there are several other dishes like Hrouss, which is a green pepper paste, Harisset Louz which is an almond paste and even a traditional tool called mehress which is used to crush spices.
this orissa thing is clearly another invention from people that do no know the region and want to add up some irrelevant info to seem intelligent. 197.31.147.81 (talk) 04:55, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton You didn't reply to my last addition in this discussion, I added information in the etymology, you just edited it by replacing Tunisia with Maghreb while my source clearly mentions Tunisia for the Mehrez tool, Any explanation ?? Are you just editing to prove your point ? Where did you find that Mehrez is maghrebi ? Are you deciding now to add infos from your imagination without mentionning any reliable source ?
I'm reporting this to wikipedia editors because you are clearly editing anything mentioning tunisia to prove your ego, you're not acting as a wikipedia editor, you should be assigned to supervise edits in another article as you are harming the quality of informations here 197.26.219.71 (talk) 19:46, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unbelievable! You created a storm, pinged me three times in a row and plastered my username on every board you could find just because you want to appropriate something that was invented in the stone age.
Mehraz is a tunisian tool you just confirmed what I always believed: most of the nationalist edits are the result of pure ignorance and a complete lack of real interest in the subject.
The "tool" in question has a name, it's called a mortar, or more specifically, a pestle and mortar. In the Maghreb, it's known as "Mahrez", "Mahres" or "amerhraz" (in Kabyle); and in Spain it's known as Almirez (search for "almirez mortero" to see some examples). The root of these words seems to be "Mihras" (Arabic for mortar), itself deriving from the Arabic word "harasa" (which means either to pound, to pulp or to mash). They tend to be made out of hard wood, hard stone, brass or bronze (which tend to look more or less like this 18th century English pestle and mortar).
As well as highlighting the similarities between the Arabic, Maghrebi and Spanish names for the mortar, the etymology might also explain why the word "harissa" (harisa, hareesa, etc) is used for dishes that have the ingredients all mashed up together in places such as Kashmir and Armenia (where the national dish "Harissa" is very similar to the Middle Eastern dish known as "Harees").
If after reading the above (which is easily attributable) you still believe that "Mahrez" is a "Tunisian tool", then there is nothing more I can do to help you. Needless to say that I'm done here. M.Bitton (talk) 22:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested edit - Etymology

@Rosguill

Hrous is a Tunisian condiment native to Gabès in the south of Tunisia, for which there is a whole article with sources in Wikipedia, not Maghrebi, please correct it, no need for consensus when the information is undisputed and proven by reliable sources.

Hrous

Thanks in advance GMOEMOE (talk) 00:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion in the above section "The recipe is Tunisia..." doesn't look like a consensus to me. signed, Rosguill talk 01:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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