Talk:Hanni (singer)

Hanni is not dual national

The article that says she is misleading has no real evidence that she is a dual national. She is of Vietnamese ethnicity but is born in Australia. She has never lived in Vietnam, so she can not be a Vietnamese national but only a Australian national. https://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/Committees/economics_ctte/estimates/sup_1516/Treasury/answers/SBT148-150_Ludwig_Attachment.pdf states if she is born in Australia, she is of Australian national/citzenship.

There is no evidence that she is a Vietnamese dual national with Australia. Especially being born in 2004. Her parents were of Australian citizenship when Hanni was born. So it is impossible for her to be other than an Australian citzen.

The original author of the korean entertainment news article is only one only article that states this misinformation. It could be a korean to english translation error or a article to stir up controversy but there are no facts or evidence to prove that Hanni Pham is a dual nationality. Hence the reference is removed since its is false regarding her single Australian nationality Lightningwhitefox (talk) 12:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

This says she's a dual national. You need a reliable source that says she's not a dual national - we only go by what sources expressly say. You cannot work it out through your own knowledge and research - that's prohibited under Wikipedia's policies. See WP:OR. DeCausa (talk) 13:08, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Lightningwhitefox According to WP:VERIFY, quote "In the English Wikipedia, verifiability means people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than editors' beliefs, opinions, experiences, or previously unpublished ideas or information. Even if you are sure something is true, it must have been previously published in a reliable source before you can add it". The Korea Times (removed 6RR via revision: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) is not the only source stating the subject as dual nationality; there are multiple reliable sources of similar reputability regardless of languages with the same information. However, per WP:CITEBOMB, we (the editors that contributed to Hanni (singer)) don't include all of them here. Therefore, the statement you made "There is no evidence that she is a Vietnamese dual national with Australia. Especially being born in 2004. Her parents were of Australian citizenship when Hanni was born. So it is impossible for her to be other than an Australian citzen" contradicts the VERIFY policy. Additionally, your rationale, quote from edit summary "I am an Australian Vietnamese like Hanni and know that if she is born here, she can't be dual a national with Vietnam" falls under Wikipedia:ORIGINAL RESEARCH. As stated in ORIGINAL RESEARCH, quote "On Wikipedia, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists ... To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article and directly support the material being presented".

@DeCausa FYI, the latest revision currently contradicts your reply due to prevent WP:3RR violation from the involved editors. Pinging @Btspurplegalaxy should you wish to comment on this topic that you reverted on earlier. Also pinging @Poirot09 and @Dumbcat79, whom has the highest contributions to this article for their comments, if the deleted materials including the source should be restored (if not rollback yet) or if the materials including the source should be deleted (if rollbacked). — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Lightningwhitefox is correct. The Korea Times is not an authoritative source. Where is the Korea Times citation source claiming she holds Vietnamese citizenship? She holds Australian citizenship only until there is definitive proof from a reputable source which provides clear evidence she holds Vietnamese citizenship. Vien.Vu1 (talk) 09:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 I would suggest that you read my reply above again as your comment was already answered above hence I won't repeat myself. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 09:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

"The Korea Times (removed 6RR via revision: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) is not the only source stating the subject as dual nationality; there are multiple reliable sources of similar reputability regardless of languages with the same information."

I would like to see the multiple reliable sources used to verify this information.

Hanni was born in Melbourne, Australia. By default, she would have Australian citizenship. Despite her parents and grandparents coming from Vietnam, that does not make her a Vietnamese citizen. Vien.Vu1 (talk) 10:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 Here are some of the reliable sources with similar information in both Korean or English from Donga Ilbo, Herald Corporation, Elle Korea, Korea JoongAng Daily, Business Insider, and Nylon. Please note that these are non-exhaustive and are provided in good faith, and there are additional reliable sources available. If you require more sources, please conduct the research yourself as per WP:BURDEN. It is not my responsibility to provide all sources and/or teach you how to find them. If you need help on "how to research", please consult the WP:TEAHOUSE. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Paper9oll Business Insider says "Hanni was born in Vietnam, but raised in Australia, per Nylon."

That reference to Nylon says: "Vietnamese-Australian member Hanni is a vocalist and a primary dancer of NewJeans. The 18-year-old was born in Vietnam but was raised in Australia."

It contradicts The Korea Times citation in the article: "Hanni, whose real name is Pham Ngoc Han, was born in Melbourne, Australia, in 2004."

Are you going to edit the Hanni page now to state that she was born in Vietnam instead of Melbourne, Australia?

If you continue to suggest that Hanni holds Vietnamese citizenship without providing reliable sources you are actively partaking in the spread of misinformation. Vien.Vu1 (talk) 11:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 I'm pretty sure that we're discussing nationality, so please don't go out of scope as this causes unproductive discussion. While there may or may not be reporting errors in Business Insider, which in turn quoted from Nylon's reporting, this isn't under my capacity to comment on as I'm not the editor for these two companies. Regardless, it's important to note that the six sources provided indicate that Hanni is "Vietnamese" and/or "Australian" and/or "Vietnamese–Australian" or similar variations. Even if there are reporting errors regarding her birthplace in two out of the six sources, the discussion's scope, i.e., nationality, is still correctly addressed.

In addition, I would suggest that you retract your statement, "Are you going to edit the Hanni page now to state that she was born in Vietnam instead of Melbourne, Australia? If you continue to suggest that Hanni holds Vietnamese citizenship without providing reliable sources you are actively partaking in the spread of misinformation". Otherwise, I will consider this a form of personal attacks, which goes against the guideline to "comment on content, not on the contributor". Failure to retract will mark the end of this discussion between us. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Paper9oll I'll retract that statement to continue this discussion. Apologies if you perceived that as a personal attack.

Vietnamese-Australian does not indicate that she is both Vietnamese and Australian nationality. It is simply used as an ethnicity marker which is common in Western countries, such as Australia. By birth, she is Australian which makes her an Australian citizen. Her ethnicity is Vietnamese due to her parental heritage. Ethnicity and Nationality are entirely separate conversations.

My suggestion would be to edit the article to state that Hanni is "an Australian singer of Vietnamese descent" and her Citizenship to be just "Australia". Vien.Vu1 (talk) 12:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 To retract, please follow WP:REDACT guidelines. Your proposed suggestion would still require reliable sources to fulfill the verify policy. However, I couldn't find any sources to support it (meaning it must be explicitly written as such). From my observations, the reliable sources commonly report her as (in order of common usage):

1. "Vietnamese–Australian" without explicitly mentioning "nationality" and/or "citizenship" and/or "citizen"
2. "Vietnamese" with the word "nationality"
3. "Vietnamese" with the word "descent" or "citizen of Vietnam and Australia" (Point 3 has two usages of equal frequency)

In order to reach a WP:CONSENSUS, the first option is currently the most viable option as it also fulfills the MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES guidelines. However, for option 2 and 3, given the direction of this discussion and the comments made, it's unlikely to gain any consensus and would likely result in a stalemate and/or circular discussion. Hence my proposal as is below:

−

{{Short description|Australian and Vietnamese singer (born 2004)}} ... ... {{Infobox person ... ... | citizenship = {{hlist|Australia<ref name=":01" />|Vietnam<ref name=":01" />}} ... ... }} ... Hanni (/hɑːniː/; Korean: 하니), is an Australian and Vietnamese singer and songwriter based in South Korea.

+

{{Short description|Vietnamese–Australian singer (born 2004)}} ... ... {{Infobox person ... ... | nationality = Vietnamese–Australian<ref name=":01" /> <!-- As per consensus at talk page, maintain Vietnamese–Australian nationality as per [[MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES]] guidelines --> ... ... }} ... Hanni (/hɑːniː/; Korean: 하니), is a Vietnamese–Australian<!-- As per consensus at talk page, maintain Vietnamese–Australian nationality as per [[MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES]] guidelines --> singer and songwriter based in South Korea.

My proposal also includes hidden note to make it clear that this is based on consensus here and also aligned with MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES guidelines. This hidden note should deter any further changes to this area moving forward once implemented as it would be considered as going against the consensus, which may be seen as a signs of disruptive editing. However, as per WP:CCC, should there be a need to update this area in the future, a new consensus shall be required to overwrite the previous consensus. No changes to the citations are required, including [1] (The Korea Times, disputed above), as this citation already explicitly supports the "Vietnamese–Australian" writing. However, "Australian–Vietnamese" does not have any reliable sources that explicitly state it as such, hence this isn't a viable option. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Happy to go ahead with your proposal. Thank you. Vien.Vu1 (talk) 14:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 Thanks you. Are you comfortable to wait 3 days (till 17 July 2024) as a precaution to see if there are any further objections (if applicable) before this changes is implemented? As I don't want a situation where immediately, this was implemented then the disruptive editing starts again by those whom objected but didn't participated. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Paper9oll Yes, happy to wait until 17th July 2024 for the changes to be implemented. Vien.Vu1 (talk) 14:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 Ok thanks! — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I am finally not banned anymore. Being a newbie to wikipedia.

The korea times was translated from a korean source. Where in Korean. Describing Hanni as a Vietnamese member rather than the unatural korean way of saying someone is ethnically Vietnamese. We can say 혈통 rather than 국적 but its unnatural. The problem with using translated sources is the mistranslation.

Since most news articles in Vietnam refer to Hanni as a person with Vietnamese roots.

So without self research. And hunting resources based on wikipedia guidelines there's no definitive proof of a dual nationality source as most articles point to the Korea MOFA article where Hanni with newjeans did some government promotion for the relationship between Vietnam and Korea. Where the article in Korea states newjeans consists of a Vietnamese member. Which can be determined as ethnicity rather than nationality. The problem is we cant provide korean sources to the English wikipedia side. Lightningwhitefox (talk) 12:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

@Lightningwhitefox I'm not going to address your comment as it's unclear what you are trying to imply. Please note that, as stated above and by other editors on your talk page during your block, Wikipedia does not operate on original research, and you are prohibited from doing so here. This was also communicated to you during your block. Additionally, you have been directed to the policy WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS twice, so I assume you have read it. Otherwise, please note that there is already an existing consensus (with planned implementation on 17 July 2024) above. If you have concerns with the proposal, kindly address them here. Your concerns should focus solely on the proposal to ensure that the discussion remains productive, please provide reliable sources to support your concerns explicitly (i.e., word-for-word) as the existing proposal is based on reliable sources. Failure to comply with this advice and acceptable reply format will result in no further responses. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)