Talk:French criminal law

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Translation of French wikilinks

Use Wikidata links to find the correct wikilink at en-wiki:

Mini-glossary: links in the lead of fr:Droit pénal en France and their equivalents in en-wiki, from Wikidata

Where equivalents exists, they are shown (use lower-case s needed); where they do not, use {{ill}} template as shown. Where '+ {{efn}}' is indicated, it means that no brief translation would be adequate, and an explanatory note is recommended.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathglot (talk • contribs) 22:54, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Possible in-links and redirects

The following articles may have content useful for possible in-links to this article:

List of articles that could link here
Possible redirects

External links

Useful links for development and expansion of the article:

Third paragraph

@A. C. Santacruz:, thanks for helping out with the third paragraph. Regarding the inline hidden comments you added, thanks as well. The article will no doubt go through expansion and evolution once it is launched. My initial approach is just to faithfully translate the lead, whether it be right, wrong, iffy, or unclear. We may end up reorganizing, modifying, or tearing it all up and starting from scratch, but I would like to just get those four paragraphs done as faithfully as possible, add a few references to pass notability, and then move it to mainspace. At that point, it will have much higher visibility, and hopefully the editing community will pitch in and take it to the next level.

As far as your inline comments, methodologically I prefer higher visibility than leaving them hidden. I use two approaches for this: explanatory notes, and template {{clarify span}}. Notes are useful when we know perfectly well what the French text is saying (e.g., délit), but it can't easily be rendered in English in just a few words; in this case, add an explanatory note about it, which will allow readers to read straight through the running text without stopping, but refer to the note if they wish to understand better. (There are three of these created already but not yet filled out.) In cases where we are *not* sure what the French text intends, then take your best shot, and ensurround any confuscarating text[clarify] which will visibly tag the questionable translation and alert editors to hover over the tag or read the wikicode to fix it. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 22:12, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll follow your suggestions, Mathglot :) Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 22:24, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Inspiration

At Talk:Éric Zemmour (diff); now in Archive 2. Mathglot (talk) 01:43, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Invitations

JBchrch, you made some good observations about rendering concepts of French criminal law into English a year ago in a discussion at the Eric Zemmour article TP (now at Talk:Éric_Zemmour/Archive_2#Translating_'délit'). In part, they inspired the creation of this article.
Elinruby, we've worked well together before, both in French historical articles, as well as in articles such as the Operation Car Wash series, involving concepts in Brazilian law (which derive from the Napoleonic system) which is so different and complex I ended up creating WP:Brazil/Glossary just to find my way around.

Anyway, after idling for months, I finally had to release French criminal law to avoid deletion out of Draft space, but it is in need of expansion and fresh eyes. You are both cordially invited to have a look, and to get involved as little or as much as you would like.

If it seems difficult to know where to begin, that seems about right, as I had to immerse myself at the outset and throughout the editing process in a lot of contextual background material on the French constitutional, governmental, administrative, judicial, and legal systems, to see how things fit together, almost none of which was obvious or familiar to me at the beginning, and hardly any of which is directly relevant to this article (with the exception of some outlines of the judicial system). Browsing the diagram expanded to max size may help; as would an outline-style article on the topic area, although I think outlines are not supposed to have lots (or any?) red links, and at this point, an outline article would be almost all red links (echoing the splatter of red links all over the lead of this article which reflect the void in en-wiki about this entire subject). Besides contributing directly to this article, another entry point to the topic area would be to address any of the red links and expand it into an article, if that appeals. Happy to offer suggestions or respond to questions based on my still elementary understanding of the topic area, if I can help. Thanks, and welcome! Mathglot (talk) 22:08, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sanctions section

The section on Punishment § Sanctions should be considerably expanded. The French article Sanction pénale en France is a long article about the topic, but unfortunately it has almost no references, so it is probably not a good source to translate from but may be useful for general background. Mathglot (talk) 22:52, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This section now has six references. Just found a great resource in Understanding the sentencing process in France (Hodgson-Soubise, 2016). It covers this topic in detail (and in English), and could be used to considerably expand the #Sanctions section. Mathglot (talk) 22:45, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Marshalcy

This makes my teeth hurt, but I don't have a better suggestion ATM. Marshal does seem to be the best translation of maréchal, as I recall from previous adventures in the Ancient Régime. I don't like it because American minds will go to Tombstone etc. Let's start with: is this actually a word in English? Elinruby (talk) 16:44, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see it is. Elinruby (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just like Maréchaussée is an infrequent word in French, mostly reserved for the historical entity under the Ancien Regime, the same could be said of Marshalcy in a British context. My impression is that the situation has some good parellelism, with both words being rare-ish in their respective languages, except to designate a particular entity from past centuries (although I think there are multiple kinds of historical Marshalcies in British history, but I could be wrong about that). So using the unfamiliar Marshalcy to translate the unfamiliar Maréchaussée (besides the fact that that's the term dictionaries actually give as the translation) is probably a good thing. We're both well aware that translation hardly ever is a one-to-one business, and the difficulties and imprecision of choosing a word in one language for one in another with completely different cultural and historical baggage is never an exact science; but with that caveat, my current opinion is that Marshalcy is about as close as we can get, and is good enough. Mathglot (talk) 08:12, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a better idea, and it's at least a word. I am mentally putting this on the pile of terms that possibly should be treated as foreign language words, but at least for the moment I agree that it should stay, although I still don't like it, lol Elinruby (talk) 17:20, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moral persons

This would include corporations? And who else? Elinruby (talk) 16:50, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The fr-wiki article on this is vast; considering it for translation Elinruby (talk) 18:29, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The what and awkward tags

Thanks for adding the {{what}} and {{awkward}} tags in recent edits. You've nailed a few items that I had trouble translating, and that I suspect are fuzzy in the original (which is insufficiently sourced, otherwise I could've just gone straight to the source, and recreated the gist from there; but mostly they weren't there when needed, leaving just the cryptic text). Those sections indeed need improvement. Mathglot (talk) 08:57, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, but I noticed that the article is now listed at Articles needing copyedit, so we may have an influx of well-meaning editors who have never heard of Napoleonic law, FYI. Not sure what I can or should do about that. Elinruby (talk) 17:16, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We could change it to WP:HIDDEN text instead (not my fave solution), or I wonder if there's another maint template that doesn't have a tracking category? probably not. But the influx, if any, is likely to be small; the articles tagged for copyedit just in this month of November are here, and the fuller list is a couple thousand, so not too worried. Mathglot (talk) 19:20, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Juge d'instruction problem

In the lede: "The *public prosecutor* [fr] and his staff are responsible for the pursuit of legal proceedings and criminal prosecution, in collaboration with the police. To determine the offense, the *judge* must have..." (Bold mine)

Indeed correct afaik, but the average quidam will not understand. I did not attempt to fix this, as doing so will require verifying that we are in fact talking about the juge d'instruction here. Elinruby (talk) 19:09, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; I'll go back and check the source where I got that. Mathglot (talk) 18:18, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redlink abatement

Translated the lede of "action publique"; I got a translated temple on it but have to look up the syntax of the expand tag. I will get to that at some point today. Elinruby (talk) 19:17, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Public action in French law is a good start. It only has one reference, and my rule of thumb is WP:THREE to give it a solid foothold in main space, but it's clearly a notable topic so I don't think there's any chance of deletion, but still two more refs would be better. Mathglot (talk) 18:26, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

MT pitfall re société

To whom it may concern: The French word for society in general, société, is also the translation for "company", as in an organization, and Google Translate (at least) confuses the two meanings. We should not rely on Google, but the keyword is "rely". In experienced and fluent hands it's an ok first-pass tool imho. I am just saying: there is a hole in the road there, if we run into confusing text in this area. Elinruby (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Terminology

Thinking about a terminology section, and what to add there. Being that this is about a French topic, clearly there are very many terms that will be unfamiliar to English-speaking readers, and translations are very often only approximations, and there are pitfalls, so we should probably say something about that. Otoh, with the quantity of foreign terms in the article, explaining them all (outside of a brief, parenthetical note or explanatory note in line) would be too much. I'm leaning towards just including some of the most important ones, as well as any that are problematic because of false friend issues or where the real meaning cannot be determined from the cognate term in English (e.g., action publique), or which have dual meanings in the original French which would be unclear or misleading if simply translated with one term in English and not explained (like droit civil). Here's the list of terms that currently appear somewhere in the article as of rev. 1141959857‎:

List of French terms possibly in need of explanation in a Terminology section
  • action civile
  • action publique
  • application de la loi pénale dans le temps
  • cas prévôtaux
  • code pénal
  • compétence
  • compositions pénale
  • Conférence de consensus
  • contravention
  • contraventions
  • cour de cassation
  • cours d'assises
  • crime
  • crimes
  • délit
  • délits
  • détention criminelle
  • détention
  • droit administratif
  • droit commun
  • droit privé
  • élément matériel
  • élément moral
  • emprisonnement
  • enquête
  • favoriser son amendement, son insertion ou sa réinsertion
  • Habit de Procureur
  • Il n'y a point de crime ou de délit sans intention de le commettre.
  • infraction
  • instruction
  • juge de l'application des peines
  • juge d'instruction
  • juridictions de l'ordre judiciaire
  • Légalité des délits et des peines
  • maréchaussée
  • nouveau code pénal
  • Nul ne peut être puni qu'en vertu d'une loi établie et promulguée antérieurement au délit, et légalement appliquée.
  • order administrative
  • ordre judiciaire
  • partie civile
  • peine de stage
  • Personne physique en droit français
  • préalable légal
  • prévôtés
  • principe de légalité
  • procureur
  • réclusion a perpétuité
  • réclusion criminelle
  • réclusion
  • responsabilité pénale des personnes morales
  • travail d'intérêt général
  • tribunal correctionnel
  • tribunal de police

Mathglot (talk) 20:35, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Glossary of French criminal law now mostly serves this purpose, and every headword is directly addressable. Some terms, especially those which are false friends or whose literal translation is opaque (e.g., action publique) might still require in-line explanation, or an explanatory note. Mathglot (talk) 03:01, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge from old article pre-redirect?

Note: revision 1153654616 of Criminal justice system of France (now a redirect to this article) may have some content that could be merged here. Mathglot (talk) 01:35, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Had another look, and now I don't think so. Mathglot (talk) 05:20, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources of the law

The theme of studying the "sources of the law" is highly developed in France,[1] and this section should be expanded and developed. Possibly the main treatment should reside in French law with a summary here, since most of the discussion pertains to both criminal and civil law.

To expand this section, see Dickson & Hübner, ch. 1, and Elliott, Jeanpierre & Vernon chap. 3 & 4 dealing with "written" (droit écrit) and unwritten sources (droit coutumier) of the law.[1] Interestingly, EJV says some of the "unwritten sources" are actually written,[2], so this written/unwritten dichotomy seems misnamed, and defines "unwritten" as "sources which do not emanate from a public authority". Dickson & Hübner deal with this on p. 6.[1] Dadomo & Farran use different language, calling them "authoritative" and "persuasive". De Noblet calls them "creative sources" and "interpretive sources".[3].

From Dadomo & Farran:

Sources of law in France are divided into those that are authoritative — the primary sources of law — which give rise to legal rules; and those that are persuasive — the subsidiary sources of law — from which no binding rules can be derived. The former includes legislation and custom, the latter jurisprudence — the decisions of the courts — and doctrine — legal writings.[4]

D & F go on to subdivide "authoritative" sources into 1) "written law", i.e., the lois, the Constitution, the décrets-lois, constitutional, organic, and ordinary laws, réglements (referred to in the Const.), ordonnances (ditto), treaties and int'l agreements, and community law;[5] and 2) "custom", which emanates "from the people, not the State, but is recognized and safeguarded by the State".[6] There is no definition of custom, but the law recognizes three types.[7] Mathglot (talk) 20:50, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References
Citations
  1. ^ a b c Dickson & Hübner 1994, p. 6.
  2. ^ Elliott, Jeanpierre & Vernon 2006, p. 77.
  3. ^ de Noblet 2004, p. 19.
  4. ^ Dadomo & Farran 1996, p. 27.
  5. ^ Dadomo & Farran 1996, p. 28-38.
  6. ^ Dadomo & Farran 1996, p. 39.
  7. ^ Dadomo & Farran 1996, p. 40.
Works
  • Dadomo, Christian; Farran, Susan (1996) [1st pub. 1993]. The French legal system (2nd ed.). London: Sweet & Maxwell. ISBN 0-421-53970-4.
  • de Noblet, Christel (2004). French legal methodology. Leicester, U.K.: Institute of Art and Law. ISBN 9781903987049. OCLC 74813080.
  • Dickson, Brice; Hübner, Ulrich (1994). Introduction to French law. London: Pitman. ISBN 9780273601401. OCLC 3479836.
  • Elliott, Catherine; Jeanpierre, Eric; Vernon, Catherine (2006). French Legal System (Second ed.). Harlow, England: Pearson/Longman. ISBN 978-1-4058-1161-3. OCLC 70107160.
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