Talk:Education in the United States/Archive 2011

Daily schedule - weekly schedule

Minor point - the "average" daily schedule. "six hours" or whatever, needs to be reinserted with a reference. Similarly the five day school week. With a reference. There is a "number of days" thing which would also make sense, since there are only about 180 days required or so, leaving plenty of time off for holidays, in-service, vacation, etc. With a reference! Student7 (talk) 19:17, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Drop out rates

This is sort of discussed now. It probably needs discussion before I try to integrate it.

"Drop out rates are a concern in American four year colleges. In New York, 54 percent of students entering four-year colleges in 1997 had a degree six years later — and even fewer Hispanics and blacks did.(ref)http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10053859/(end ref) 33 percent of the freshmen who enter the University of Massachusetts, Boston, graduate within six years. Less than 41 percent graduate from the University of Montana, and 44 percent from the University of New Mexico. (ref)http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/business/economy/09leonhardt.html(end ref)" Student7 (talk) 19:33, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Uncle Milty?

Another paragraph that was deleted looked uncomfortably familiar and was totally unreferenced. I want to think it wasn't me, but anyway:

"Another issue is that many parents of private school and home-schooled children have taken issue with the idea of paying for an education their children are not receiving. However, tax proponents point out that every person pays property taxes for public education, not just parents of school-age children. Indeed, without it schools would not have enough money to remain open. Still, parents of students who go to private schools want to use this money instead to fund their children's private education. This is the foundation of the school voucher movement. School voucher programs were proposed by free-market advocates seeking competition in education, led by economist Milton Friedman, but have been criticized for damaging public schools, both in funding and diversity."

What's wrong with a little WP:SOAPBOX now and then? Somehow, I am unpersuaded when I delete this sort of thing in other articles, so will need to find something that says this. And WP:RELY as well. I think it is fairly accurate BTW. But sounds a bit WP:OR-ish, I admit. Particularly when it was citation-free. Student7 (talk) 19:40, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

College expectations vs High School instructors beliefs

A paragraph once read:

"Forty-four percent of college faculty believe that incoming students aren't ready for writing at the college level. Ninety percent of high school teachers believe exiting students are well-prepared.(ref)Burlington Free Press. Retrieved September 15, 2009.(end ref) (Dead link|date=October 2010|bot=H3llBot)(comment)---this is well-documented and well-known. It may be moved, relabeled, and/or re-footnoted but shouldn't be deleted. (end comment)"

The link died, so it was deleted. This isn't discussed anyplace else and should be re-added. Yes. Yes. "With proper citations." Student7 (talk) 19:33, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, I inserted four links for this highly publicized piece of information. Perhaps one of those links will last sufficiently long so I won't have to replace it in the near future. Student7 (talk) 02:44, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Is this serious or is it just a prank?

I quote from the article: "Nearly 6.2 million students between the ages of 16 and 24 in 2007 dropped out of high school, including nearly three of 10 Hispanics.[22] This is considered important to address as the incarceration rate for African-American male high school dropouts is about 50 (fifty) times the national average.[23]"

Whoever put this on there should rephrase it. Otherwise, i think it doesn't belong in the article Opinions? Aspergiles (talk) 07:24, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I was responsible. Stuck it in the same sentence as "Nearly 6.2..." and it didn't really belong there. Should have re-read it more closely before adding. I've change this to a separate paragraph with it's own introduction. (The second sentence, re-worded, is valid and has a valid reference). Student7 (talk) 00:45, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Educational Issues

There should be a lot more information on how our educational system play's a role in benefiting those at the top, and how it lays deficient among those who are classified as "minorities" in society. There are many things said about the educational system that conform to the positive side, yet there's not much said about the negative things that cause a vast number of student's to drop out school in high school, and the reasons for that outcome.Jona mart (talk) 08:28, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Funny you should bring that up. In Florida, the Education Department changed the criteria for ranking schools based on achievement. They heavily weighted elevating the scores of minorities. As a result, a high school that was highly ranked nationally for many years was downgraded to "C" because few minorities attended and those that did were already performing pretty well, while elevating another high school "with problems" I won't go into, to an "A" school because they had brought up the horrible scores of their minorities (to less than the former A school, but much higher than they were before). This pleased the new "A" school no end, and annoyed nearly everyone else!

While preventing drop outs is important, I don't see how an article can be written that suggests that any school system can buck environment. They can try, but there are awfully few successes. An article seems more like conjecture or wishful thinking IMO. Often discussed but rarely achieved Student7 (talk) 21:49, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Comparison to Europe

I am amazed that nothing like [[1]] seems to be mentioned in this article. For outside people it is strange that a institution called high school is offering car repair education. In Europe that is only offered in the lowest part of the 3-part system. To me this looks like the weak point in the whole US system (everybody goes to the same school). Hobbema (talk) 00:12, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually everybody goes to a different school. It can be a bit bizarre. There is no "US system". The federal government has almost no legal authority over public education. Schools are run independently by the states at the local level. The local districts in each state may offer vocational classes like car repair (or pig farming). Hmmm...This article should probably explain that. - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 02:33, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Not sure it is easy to jump "parts" in the European system; once classified, you may be stuck. In the US system, late-blooming students can switch from taking car repair to algebra. They usually don't, but it is always an option.

Also, all US students are expected to attend college, which is economically inefficient. Most don't finish, and most schools attended were 80% state-supported. It doesn't make sense, but at least "everyone" gets a chance to pretend s/he will be a business tycoon someday.

And, oh, the US has no jobs to accommodate a 100% college graduate cohort anyway. Who would do the "real" work? Illegal immigrants?

The current system is "educator-driven" and bears little relation to the real world. College costs are rising well above inflation because of "demand."

It's "true democracy at work=totally idiotic."

Yes. There should probably be an article. Student7 (talk) 13:11, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Funding for K-12 schools

This section is pretty incoherent; it reads like a copied & pasted mash-up of facts selected without discrimination. A basic outline of how the funding system works would be an appropriate start. Discussion of whether funding is adequate (I assume this is what all the examples & Marva Collins bit are intended as...) would make more sense after that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.217.233.62 (talk) 07:16, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Not sure about "adequacy" adjective. Florida has been rated at the top of the heap in efficiency and achievement but still ranks low in funding. The system which ranked Florida high did have to mention that the funding was poor! Not sure what that means to a bureaucracy that is never satisfied with funding. Student7 (talk) 13:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

This section is pretty horrible indeed. It gives very little relevant information, and then delves into a discussion that does not belong here. It says nothing about how public education is funded in the US: federal, state, local municipalities? How is it typically divided between these? What are the issues in funding public education? How funding of public education varies across states and population groups? This are the things that should be there.

Instead of giving any useful information, this section goes into a discussion on the effectiveness of public spending in public education, which is presented in an non-NPOV manner, quoting some random anecdotal evidence and highly biased sources such as the Heritage Foundation. I think the entire section should be rewritten and focus on FACTS. The debate on public education should go elsewhere. Salmador (talk) 15:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

BusinessWeek resource

America Left Behind starting on page 96 in print October 17-23, 2011 issue. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 23:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

About those library facts

I would suggest reconsidering or at least rephrasing the "Reading and writing habits" section. I feel that these facts taken out of context give an impression that people in America tend to read more than the rest of the world. The source itself states that Americans tend to buy more books due to the lack of borrowing habits and that because of its well established public library traditions people tend to take out more books than in a few mentioned European countries. First of all, in my oppinion, if we are talking about education the number of books taken from libraries in general may not be a relevant fact. Since reading pulp fiction novels do not serve educational purposes in general. Furthermore I feel that one source, especially quoted so poorly, is not enough to tackle the subject of reading and writing habits. Both of which include a lot more than merely three statistical facts taken out of context. Thus I feel that the whole section is off-topic and irrelevant the way it is. I did not dare to make the change but I was hoping to point out my view. Q Plung (talk) 03:33, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I tweaked a bit, but not enough to satisfy your statement. I think the facts speak for themselves. The paragraphs do not claim that Americans read "better" books, whatever that means. But more books and libraries are more available. If you can refute those statements with reliable sources, you are free to do so. Or, if you can show that European read "better" books, please do so, but defining "better" may prove to be a challenge, I suspect. Student7 (talk) 13:11, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I am awfully sorry for the misunderstanding, I did not mean to say that Europeans read "better" books. I was merely trying to point out that library statistics do not necessarily reflect on the state of education. The source is also questionable. There are no actual statistics or verifiable data and it seems to be more of a retribution for Simone de Beauvoir's long lost statement. If there are actual numbers I do think they are worth mentioning but I do not think these comparisons are actually relevant for the topic at hand. I do think there should be a reading and writing habits section but I think it should cover more ground and contain actual relevant facts. Again, I am not trying to be disrespectful or to say that there is anything wrong with the education in the United States, nor that education in Europe is any better. Q Plung (talk) 03:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I apologize if my reply sounded harsh. It was not meant to be.

You may have a good question about "how do library habits affect the quality of education? Or do they affect it at all?" I agree that we may have taken this for granted. I hate to go drop down too far. Can't we assume that it promotes literacy? What can we assume, if anything? Student7 (talk) 18:09, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I've inserted a lead in for which there can be found more support, if you don't like that statement. And no, I can't find a direct statement that says "Because Americans read more books, they are better educated than Europeans." And I don't expect to.

I think the statement is equivalent to "a good preventative against diseasex is milk.(footnote) Americans drink more milk than anyone else.(footnote)" The foregoing does not show, nor did it pretend to show that Americans actually benefited from drinking more milk. It does "suggest" that they have a good or better chance of not getting diseasex, assuming that the first statement is accurate. Student7 (talk) 18:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Reorganization

The organization has (probably "again") gotten out of hand. Too many levels (just added one myself, so I'm not accusing anyone else! :) Too many first level topics. Student7 (talk) 13:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Judicial intervention by state Supreme Courts

An editor just made a nice contribution to what I have called "judicial intervention." This needs to be blown up into its own article. Will leave a note on the editor's page. Student7 (talk) 13:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Comparing to other first world countries

Generally, in the states themselves, Southern states students scores on standardized tests compare worse than Northern states. Until minorities are compared separately. Then many Southern states white students perform "well-enough" compared to Northern, as do their minorities, when compared separately.

I suggest that while Europe, too, has small minorities, they don't affect the scores as much as they do in the US - not that many minority students. I suggest the US would do quite well against Europe with whites only and perhaps with "blacks only" where appropriate.

I suspect that some Asian students do well in either the US or their home country. It would be interesting to have a comparison that separates them out. I have not seen one.

But comparing gross scores against Europe appears blantantly pov. It is not a level playing field. Student7 (talk) 16:05, 20 October 2011 (UTC)