Talk:Dall sheep

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The article states that "Dall sheep live in subarctic mountain ranges" but in fact their range extends well into the Arctic as well, and there is a large Dall Sheep population in the Brooks Range. 69.178.87.100 (talk) 05:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

predators

The cougar is not among its primary predators (not even in its Southern range)?--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:48, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Recursive link on thinhorn sheep

... in the first paragraph. S C Cheese (talk) 18:14, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move

Can someone please explain why the article was moved to thinhorn sheep in the absence of a discussion, and with inconsistent or nonexistence referencing re: the name? It looks like Primefac was trying to fix a cut/paste move, but I don't see a rationale for the change, apart from a mention in the IUCN redlist, that is cryptic at best. Acroterion (talk) 13:37, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am also kind of surprised this was moved without discussion. Not to be that guy but I've always heard them referred to as Dall sheep. There was also no real reason for "fixing" all references to this animal to reflect the name change as redirects are a thing. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:27, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I just did a little googling, and most of the top hits for "thinhorn sheep" yield results that use "Dall sheep" rather prominently. I really feel like this is a mistake. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:31, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have reverted the undiscussed move. Is there anyone in favor of moving this to thinhorn sheep? I am happy to open an WP:RM to discuss if at least one person is a strong supporter. — hike395 (talk) 17:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
From what I see, "thinhorn" is primarily used for Canadian subspecies, otherwise known as "stone sheep," which tend to be gray, as opposed to the very white Dall sheep. I can't find a good source that gives an answer to the overall English common name for Ovis dalli as a species. Acroterion (talk) 17:11, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My main concern is that "Dall sheep" can mean either Ovis dalli dalli or Ovis dalli, so the current title doesn't obey WP:PRECISE. "Thinhorn sheep" seems less recognizable, so is less good for WP:COMMONNAME. If the consensus is that "Dall sheep" is too ambiguous, or if there isn't a consensus on "Dall sheep", then WP:FAUNA tells us to move this to Ovis dalli. But I'm curious what other editors think. — hike395 (talk) 19:31, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That might be the best solution. Acroterion (talk) 20:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. The page is both about the species O. dalli and its more common subspecies "Dall sheep" (O. dalli dalli), and WP:FAUNA is not tailored to the situation, and there is no local consensus either. No such user (talk) 14:42, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dall sheep → Ovis dalli –

WP:FAUNA directs us to use the scientific name when there is no good common name, hence the proposal to move to Ovis dalli. — hike395 (talk) 00:42, 12 September 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. Havelock Jones (talk) 16:32, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse Acroterion (talk) 00:44, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per common name. Someone has recently been going around changing "Dall" to "Thinhorn", I thought there had been an RM on it until seeing this one posted. Randy Kryn (talk) 09:58, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • comment WP:COMMON has the subsection WP:Fauna that specifically addresses this situation. As has been noted by hike395 "Dall sheep" fails WP:PRECISE and WP:Fauna, while Ovis dalli fulfills both.--Kevmin § 23:18, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Um... WP:FAUNA says "The article title should usually consist of the name that is most common in English, following WP:Article titles § Common names. For well known animals, this will normally be the vernacular name. " I don't see how that supports the contention that this names "fails FAUNA". Beeblebrox (talk) 23:34, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • I believe what Kevmin and I are referring to (from WP:FAUNA) is:
When there is no common name or no consensus can be reached on the most common name, or if it isn't clear what taxon the common name refers to [...], use the scientific name
— hike395 (talk) 23:46, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Again, as noted by Hike395, WP:Fauna explicitly covers this situation, Dall sheep does NOT apply to all the subspecies, making this article title fail WP:Precise, and for this situation, WP:Fauna states the taxon name is to be used.--Kevmin § 00:47, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Meh verging on oppose I don't see the distinction between the subspecies becoming a point of confusion anytime soon - O. d. stonei appears to be known as "Stone's sheep", the nominate as "Dall's sheep". Fiddling with the article titles here is probably superfluous. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 22:55, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As has been noted by hike395 "Dall sheep" fails WP:PRECISE and WP:Fauna, while Ovis dalli fulfills both.--Kevmin § 23:18, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Dall sheep is the WP:COMMONNAME of this animal. Disambiguation with other species is a simple matter that can be handled with a hatnote. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment WP:Fauna overrides very generalized section at WP:COMMON with more detailed instructions.--Kevmin § 00:50, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with that interpretation, it seems clear that FAUNA explicitly says the common name should be used if it can be established, and I think it is pretty cleatly established that "Dall sheep" is the most common name of this animal. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:29, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Dall sheep is much more commonly used. J0ngM0ng (talk) 00:28, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I think there is a little confusion here, so with the help of some very reliable sources, I'll try to help clear it up. Per books like Mountain Sheep of North America or Hooved Mammals of British Colombia, there are two types of mountain sheep: bighorn sheep and thinhorn sheep. Now, as implied by the names, the primary difference between the two is the thickness of the keratin (fingernail) material the makes up the horns. Bighorns have much shorter and blunter core in their horns, and a much thicker keratin shell, whereas thinhorns have a much longer core that tapers to a point, and thinner keratin. There are many other differences as well, including size, weight, coloring, curl of the horns, etc., but that's the main difference.
There are two separate species of thinhorn sheep, Ovis dalli dalli, or Dall sheep, and Ovis dalli stonei, or stones sheep. Dall sheep tend to be more northerly, such as in Alaska and the Yukon, whereas stones sheep are more southerly, mainly in British Colombia. The main difference is in their coloring, which tends to be the best camouflage for it's particular environment; Dall sheep are snow-white and stones sheep are stone-grey or dirt-brown with snowy-white patches and a lighter colored neck. Bighorn sheep tend to be even more southerly, in places like the Rockies and Sierra Nevada. They can come in many colors, but rarely white, but the neck and body will be the same color.
If this article covers both Dall and stones sheep, then I think renaming this article "thinhorn sheep" was likely the most correct thing, since that is the common name for the group. (Although I can see an argument that both subspecies are technically under the species taxononmy dalli, meaning "Dall".) What is incorrect is changing every use of the terms "Dall sheep" or "stones sheep" to "thinhorn sheep" (whether wikilinked or not). They are closely related animals but not the same thing. So, if this article covers both, I think we should use the common overall name "thinhorn" for the title, but don't go around changing every wikilink across Wikipedia. Instead. use the redirects to link to the proper sheep in articles where one or the other is more appropriate. Zaereth (talk) 21:55, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and at the risk of making this even longer, I would also suggest maybe clarifying all of this stuff in the text of the article, perhaps beginning with something like "Thinhorn sheep are a species of mountain sheep consisting of two subspecies, Dall sheep and stones sheep. Like the other North American mountain sheep, the bighorn sheep, male thinhorn sheep have large, conical horns that taper and curl to a point..." or something like that. Then, from there on use "Dall" or "stones" most of the time to describe the subspecies, and "thinhorn" only in instances where there is a need to group them. That's my suggestion, anyhow, because that's how the books use the terms. Zaereth (talk) 00:10, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it was the wholesale changes to everything regardless of context, that were my principal objection. Which reminds me, I need to write up an SPI, there are some fishy accounts involved. Acroterion (talk) 00:52, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support'. The scientific name is unambiguous. While a good case can be made for a change to Thinhorn sheep I have two reservations. One, is that it is not really a common name in the Wikipedia sense, but a vernacular name used by the IUCN. We often ignore this distinction in naming articles so I don't think it a major objection. However, I do think there is a substantial risk that using Thinhorn would lead to replacement of "Dall sheep" and "stones sheep" with "thinhorn sheep", which would lead to lack of precision in articles. I don't think the scientific name would be substituted in the same way. A change should certainly be made and I'd support thinhorn if people think my reservations are unwarranted. —  Jts1882 | talk  08:00, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose but difficult. We have two articles, one on Ovis dalli, the other on Ovis dalli stonei which is one of two subspecies, the other subspecies being Ovis dalli dalli. The naming convention doesn't deal well with this situation. Andrewa (talk) 08:01, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Continued common name confusion

There appears to be continued editor confusion between "Thinhorn sheep" (common name for Ovis dalli), "Dall sheep" (common name for Ovis dalli) and "Dall sheep" (common name for Ovis dalli dalli). In an attempt to make the article unambiguous, I converted common name usage throughout the article to the scientific abbreviation for the species (O. dalli). I'm starting to believe that Zaereth was correct in the RM, above, and that the article should be titled Thinhorn sheep. Comments or thoughts from other editors? — hike395 (talk) 15:07, 31 July 2022 (UTC) Dall Sheep were the first animals to be on a mountain in alaska[reply]

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