Talk:Count of Wisborg

2008

Why was King opposed to memeber of royal family ressuming titles they lost due unequal marriages. Times have changed and many royal now marry commoner at it accepted. The King herself married a commoner a retained his titles and succession rights ?

I have no source for the following, it is merely from memory and shoulnd't go in the article: The counts in this article lost their titles before "times [...] changed". King Carl XVI Gustaf has not given any titles back as he believes that would be disrespectful to his predecessors at the throne and that their decisions should stand. He isyet to be in a corresponding situation himself, and even though "times have changed", plenty of things relating to royalty are still done in a non-modern way, so no assumptions can really be made about what would happen if/when e.g. Prince Carl Philip marries a commoner./Coffeeshivers (talk) 21:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what you mean by "he is yet to be in a corresponding situation himself", but he did approve of Bertil's marriage in 1976. -- Jao (talk) 22:04, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True. My mistake. I guess that means that times have actually changed. Yey! /Coffeeshivers (talk) 15:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why does Luxembourg grant this title?

Why do the Grand Dukes of Luxembourg give Swedish royals stripped of their titles the title Count of Wisborg? Is this at the request of Swedish monarchs or is this to spite Swedish monarchs? Do the Belgian & Luxembourgish monarchies have some ongoing feud with the Swedish royal family? What is the reason for this practice??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidNZL (talk • contribs) 09:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Speculation: It might be the opposite situation too; that there was a good relation with the Luxembourgian royals, and that they (covertly?) helped the Swedish court to save face by making sure that the status drop of a disowned prince wasn't very far./Coffeeshivers (talk) 21:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first holder of the title, Count Oscar Bernadotte of Wisborg was given the title by his uncle Adolphe, Grand Duke of Luxembourg. Perhaps not as surprising when you see the close family connection. As Oscar had been Duke of Gotland since birth, the castle ruin of Visborg outside Visby on Gotland was used as a name for his Count title, although it was a Luxembourg title he got. Although Oscar lost out on his right to the Swedish throne (and the title of Duke of Gotland) when he married, he did get to keep a personal prince title as Prince Bernadotte. Thus, the construction Count Bernadotte af Wisborg was, as far as I understand it, initially a specially-made title for Oscar. It seems to have been kept on as a tradition, out of generosity of later Grand Dukes/Duchesses of Luxembourg, despite later holders having been former dukes of other parts of Sweden. Tomas e (talk) 20:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I had the exact same question as DavidNZL, and I'm glad that TomasE supplied a clear answer. Let's put this in the article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Namangwari (talk • contribs) 19:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is something else to add: Only Oscar was granted the Swedish title of "Prince Bernadotte" by his father Oscar II (as a life title, non-hereditary), after he was stripped of the titles of Prince of Sweden, Duke of Gotland. The three following ex-princes were never granted the title Prince Bernadotte after being stripped of their former royal titles. However, all four are referred to as "Prince Bernadotte" in their respective Luxembourg latters patent, a polite but incorrect designation. The second sentence in the second paragraph of the article: "In each case they were given the title of nobility Prince Bernadotte, Count of Wisborg by the reigning Grand Duke or Grand Duchess of Luxembourg" is simply wrong, despite the alleged evidence in Montgomery-Massingberd and The Royalty, peerage and aristocracy of the world, Vol 90. I don't know what these sources say, perhaps they are wrong, perhaps they have just been misunderstood. But, for better evidence, just read the letters patent for Sigvard shown here. Although he is (politely but incorrectly) referred to as Prince Bernadotte (a title he never bore), he is only created a luxembourgian count of Wisborg. A distinction must be made between designation (right or wrong) and creation (with direct legal effect of the document). This is often confused. Nor had they received (or retained) a Swedish princely title after their unequal marriages. Just read Lennart's memoirs, where an entire chapter is titled: Life as a Commoner. The false fact is rightly not repeated below in the individual sections. -- And now a little background: Since Oscar's Swedish princely titel Prince Bernadotte was expressly not hereditary, his children Maria Sophia Henrietta (b. 1889) and Carl Oscar (b. 1890) were born as commoners. The progenitor of the dynasty, Charles XIV John, formerly Jean Baptiste Bernadotte, was himself born a commoner in 1763; He renounced his French title of Prince of Pontecorvo, bestowed by Napoleon in 1806, after his election as Swedish Crown Prince in 1810. This meant that his descendants in the male line were only entitled to the royal Swedish titles; After their revocation - unlike the older dynasties - they no longer had any old hereditary titles left and they were commoners again. This circumstance seemed unsatisfactory to Prince Oscar's mother, Queen Sophia, and since her husband, King Oscar II, could not be persuaded to ennoble his grandchildren, she asked her brother Adolphe, the former Duke of Nassau, who had just ascended the throne as Grand Duke of Luxembourg in 1890, the year of her grandson's birth, to grant her second son Luxembourgish citizenship and a hereditary title of nobility that would include his children. Since Gustaf V was even more strict with the unequal marriages of his three grandchildren than his father Oscar II was by ordering them to leave the royal family and lose their royal titles without granting them any life titles, all three became commoners through their marriages in the 1930s and 40s. A year after the death of Gustav V, in 1951, Charlotte, Grand Duchess of Luxembourg, took pity on her cousins and gave them the same title that had been given to Prince Oscar in 1890.-- Equord (talk) 23:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You missed the parts in the Luxembourg goverment decree which clearly state "And so that said Princes and Princesses Bernadotte and Their descendants enjoy without disorder in the dignity of Nobles of Our Grand Duchy of Luxembourg and the title of Count and Countess of Wisborg which We have conferred upon them, they use a coat of arms as described and fashioned in the aforementioned order of 2 April 1892: ... surmounted by the ducal coronet such as it actually is borne by the Princes and Princesses Bernadotte, which for their descendants shall be replaced by a coronet of a Count" and "We ask all Sovereigns and Princes and hereby summon and enjoin the Courts and Tribunals, authorities and public officials and officers of Our Grand Duchy, both for the present and the future, to recognize the said Princes and Princesses Bernadotte as well as Their legitimate descendants as belonging to the nobility of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg and to attribute Them the titles and qualifications which they own by virtue of this." --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Equord is correct. The non-hereditary title "Prince Bernadotte" has been created only once for Oscar Bernadotte in 1888. According to the Swedish Constitution of 1809, the King could not make whole families noble, only an individual and after him the eldest male heir in the line of direct descendants. In 1892, when Oscar was expecting his third child, the Swedish royal family and the government reached out to the Grand Duke of Luxembourg to solve the situation. As Oscar had been Duke of Gotland up until his marriage, the name of the royal castle in Gotland - Wisborg - was chosen. The plan was that Oscar would keep the surname Bernadotte, his children would be named Bernadotte af Wisborg and his grandchildren simply af Wisborg. Thus the Bernadotte name would become exclusive to the members of the Royal House. As more princes married and took the name Bernadotte, the name stayed in Oscar's branch as well. In 1951, the new king Gustaf VI Adolf wanted to repair the relations with the ex-princes and after deliberations within the family and with the government, the Grand Duchess of Luxemburg was asked to extend the 1892 creation to Sigvard, Carl-Johan and Lennart. This was done by copying Oscar's document word for word, which is why the title "Prince Bernadotte" was erroneously repeated. This title was never used by them and does not appear in any official lists or literature whatsoever. It is an WP invention. /Elzo 90 (talk) 08:56, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The lengthy Talk:Prince Bernadotte (which I have only seen now) does not reveal anything substantial about the assumed fact that these were newly awarded Luxembourg princely titles. An incorrect copying of the 1892 letters patent when issuing the three letters patents of 1951 explains the confusion enough. Because according to the wording of all the documents, the titles of princes were not awarded or "recognized" (as Luxembourgish), but rather they were simply assumed, and in the three cases from 1951 this was mistaken (or deliberately flattering). The appointment expressly refers only to the title of Count of Wisborg. The apparently planned reduction of the name to of Wisborg in the third generation, according to Elzo 90, was apparently not included in the wording of the documents either. Equord (talk) 14:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speculation about princely titles

I'm starting a subsection here since the discussion has transgressed from the actual heading topic.

Statements like "the title 'Prince Bernadotte' was erroneously repeated", and all the rest of that, are pure conjecture on the part of one user (who has been very active on Swedish WP with - successfully - getting everybody) to ignore the text of the Luxembourg decree of 1951, especially the part about the coat of arms obviously granting the princes Bernadotte special arms with a ducal - not a comital - coronet. We have no reason whatsoever to suspect or accuse the government of Luxembourg of making any such errors in their writing, ever, just because we don't like it. English Wikipedia articles are to contain facts with reliable sources, such as official government documents, not speculation based on the personal interpretations and opinions of Wikipedians. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:39, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Morganatically

"He married morganatically" - what means 'morganatically'? AMCKen (talk) 04:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See morganatic marriage. As an astute recent edit comment shows, however, that is irrelevant here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:09, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Swedish changes

Drastic changes have recently been made to the Swedish version of this article, where essential information has been removed along with important references like law Professor Bramstång's book and the Luxembourg Government's gazettes, and a private Swedish club for so-called "unintroduced nobility" has been reinstated as a vital (?) ingredient. There are now also references there to books of memoirs, which I believe (from my own memory) have been misquoted (will be checking on that), in order to falsely give Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden all the credit for the 1951 reissue of the title. I am informing anyone interested in this article to keep a neutral eye on it and to beware of such censorship here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:36, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Count of Wisborg. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:09, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]