Talk:Belgrade school shooting/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Title

Is elementary in the name of the school? It appears to be combined elementary & middle. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:19, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

The word elementary is in the name of the school and there's no such thing as separate elementary and middle schools in Serbia. --Killuminator (talk) 13:23, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

The article should say that this happened at a combined elementary & middle school. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:48, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

There's no such thing as combined elementary and middle schools either. It's all elementary school. --Killuminator (talk) 14:51, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

The article should say that elementary schools have pupils in their early teens. Most readers will otherwise be puzzled at that. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:59, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Do we provide these explanations on pages about American schools? No and we shouldn't here either. --Killuminator (talk) 15:10, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

In most of the world, elementary schools don't have teen pupils. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:28, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Lol, apparently "most of the world"= Anglophone countries. Mgasparin (talk) 01:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Where in the world is that? Elementary school = Osnovna Škola. I don't know what country you're from, but Elementary school in usually age 7-14. Also, WP:RS. It's an elementary school. byteflush _Talk 00:52, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

It did not. What the hell are you talking about? byteflush _Talk 02:12, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Can the article clarify what grade years this school has? It's described as a primary school in many news sources, but that ends at primary-6 (grade 6). "Middle School" is highly jurisdiction dependent (grade 5/6/7/8; grade 7/8/9; grade 5/6; grade 7/8; etc). "Elementary School" is highly jurisdiction dependent (ending with Grade 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 (primary-6) or 7 or 8 or 9 (secondary-3) ) What is the first year and final year of this school? As it has 13-year olds, I assume it includes some secondary grades. Does it end with secondary-3 (grade 9) ? -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 21:50, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Primary schools in Serbia are grades 1 o 8 RossoSPC (talk) 22:39, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

It was "grade 7", which is the equivalent to an 8th grade in the US, IIRC. byteflush _Talk 00:54, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The name should be 2023 Belgrade school shooting or even Belgrade school shooting, no need the name of the school.Eugεn S¡m¡on 15:42, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Some articles about school attacks include the school's name in their titles; some don't. I agree that Belgrade school shooting would be a better title; 99% of people outside Serbia haven't heard of this school. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:28, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

English-language sources generally use "Belgrade school shooting" (good candidate) or "Serbia school shooting" (not a good candiate) in their headlines.—Alalch E. 23:55, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Elementary School?

In former Socialist countries there are no "elementary schools" - i.e. separate schools for children aged 7-11 years. In this countries there are unified schools for children aged 7-18, 1 to 11 class. Where did you get the information that this is an elementary school (school only for first 4 years of education)? MBH (talk) 11:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

See Education in Serbia#School Stages.—Alalch E. 12:10, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Strict laws

I noticed that the sentence "Serbia has strict gun laws but nevertheless has one of the highest rates of gun ownership" doesn't really explain anything else relating to Serbia's strict gun laws. Maybe a brief summary of the relevant bits of their strict gun laws could be included? I read the sentence expecting an explanation as to what that means but instead have to go to the linked article. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 18:15, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

@Blaze Wolf agreed. RossoSPC (talk) 18:29, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll add that now. Vacant0 (talk) 18:36, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I've request page protection due to vandalism and the addition of the suspect's name. Vacant0 (talk) 19:03, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

... and the incorrect age. Can someone change it back to 13? Vacant0 (talk) 19:07, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Protection is completely unnecessary since blocks are feasible. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 19:09, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Well that could be done either. Vacant0 (talk) 19:11, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

LIterally the second sentence of the protection policy reads, "Pages are protected when a specific damaging event has been identified that can not be prevented through other means such as a block." emphasis mine. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 19:13, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Initials

Police have announced that the initials of the minor/suspect/alleged shooter are KK. I think this fact should be included (with RS), as it does not identify a particular individual and does not breach BLPCRIME. WWGB (talk) 06:57, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The police chief revealed his full name early on in a press conference, so if we said that the name was revealed as "K.K." we would not say the truth. Serbian outlets who follow the journalists' code of ethics (only some of them do) are obliged to use the initials, and the police does so as well in their PA materials. But the name was revealed by an official.—Alalch E. 14:55, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 5 May 2023

This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 14 May 2023. The result of the move review was procedural close.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus DragonFederal (talk) 11:31, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Vladislav Ribnikar Elementary School shooting → 2023 Vračar shooting – Year, city, event title. Jax 0677 (talk) 15:34, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. It is important that the title reflects that this was a school shooting. WWGB (talk) 15:43, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Reply - How about 2023 Vračar school shooting or 2023 Belgrade school shooting? --Jax 0677 (talk) 15:58, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I support 2023 Belgrade school shooting; the year should be included to satisfy WP:NCE (when, where, what). WWGB (talk) 01:31, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

+1 on this, year/place/event format is what is needed here. Elyps21 (talk) 01:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Support Belgrade school shooting (no year).—Alalch E. 16:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Support Belgrade school shooting as this is now commonly used by reliable sources. --Vacant0 (talk) 16:05, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Move to Belgrade school shooting, assuming that it's the only notable Belgrade school shooting. The vast majority of people outside Serbia haven't heard of Vračar. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:09, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Support Belgrade school shooting per above. --IndexAccount (talk) 18:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Support Belgrade school shooting per above. 〜 Festucalex • talk 19:34, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Support (2023) Belgrade school shooting per above. I would generally say that including the year is best, but I'm not opposed to excluding it. Estar8806 (talk) 20:40, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Support 2023 Belgrade school shooting per WP:NCE. This event is far too recent to meet the WP:NOYEAR exemption from NCE. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:08, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
Support moving to 2023 Belgrade school shooting - Per above. - L'Maynerque - ("May you [insert query here]?") - 22:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
I agree we should genericize to 2023 Belgrade school shooting or similar. The main point of disambiguation is the Mladenovac suburbs non-school shooting that happened close in time but is called 4 May 2023 Serbia shootings right now. --Joy (talk) 12:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- That event, the 4 May Mladenovac shootings, was not a shool shooting.—Alalch E. 12:53, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
  Exactly, but it's plausibly near Belgrade, so if that article gets that kind of a moniker, it makes sense that this one keeps the school moniker. --Joy (talk) 19:13, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Most of the following day's shooting needs the day in the title because it happened across multiple locations, most of which were in Belgrade. This one is highly internationally publicised & is Belgrade's only notable school shooting, so it fits WP:NOYEAR. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:39, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

We're getting off-topic here, but I don't think the level of detail there makes sense because such mass shootings in Mladenovac and Smederevo do not happen every day, either. --Joy (talk) 08:56, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I was explaining why the following day's shooting includes the whole date in its title. Its talk page has a move discussion on it. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:06, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose 2023 Vračar shooting, support 2023 Belgrade school shooting to satisfy WP:NCE (when: 2023, where: Belgrade, what: school shooting). // 💪Benzo Aid💪 🖊️ 07:54, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:NOYEAR, this title doesn't need the year. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:06, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Support 2023 Belgrade School Shooting per Sideswipe9th FusionSub (talk) 13:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
Oppose 2023 Vračar shooting, support 2023 Belgrade school shooting or Belgrade school shooting --RaskBunzzz (talk) 17:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 12 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 18:58, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Vladislav Ribnikar Elementary School shooting → Belgrade school shooting – per WP:COMMONNAME and only notable Belgrade school shooting. IndexAccount (talk) 14:43, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Support Per RM discussion above. --Vacant0 (talk) 15:57, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Support per above. (Year not needed per WP:NOYEAR; Belgrade's only notable school shooting.)—Alalch E. 15:59, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Procedural Oppose the closure of the earlier RM is invalid, and has been challenged by two editors on the closer's talk page. While the closer stated that there was no consensus, there was a clear consensus in that RM for 2023 Belgrade school shooting over Belgrade school shooting. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:37, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
At the very least, I would urge IndexAccount to temporarily withdraw this RM, while the challenges to the closure of the previous RM are in progress, as that needs to be resolved before this one can happen.Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:39, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
There is no clear consensus for "2023 Belgrade school shooting" over "Belgrade school shooting". It not clear should we go WP:NOYEAR or WP:NCE. --IndexAccount (talk) 17:59, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
This should have been done through the previous RM, closing it as no consensus while there's clearly no consensus for the current title was not useful. --Joy (talk) 17:09, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Support per nominator. --Killuminator (talk) 19:56, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Procedural oppose - The old requested move discussion should be relisted, as consensus was to move the article somehwere. --Jax 0677 (talk) 14:59, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
There's a new one going on and there can't be two RMs open at the same time. It would require the following things to happen: (1) someone closing this RM on procedural grounds (which could hypothetically cause someone to take that closure to move review), (2) starting a move review of the previous RM (if DragonFederal doesn't agree to undo their close, and he hasn't been replying), (3) the MR consensus to relist. Only then would editors actually be able to make new comments about including the year or not. The RM closer made a mistake to close as 'no consensus' rather than to relist, and the situation is not ideal (for example, a previous 'no consensus' will be recorded in the old move template, when, materially, it was not a 'no consensus' discussion), but isn't so bad to require that kind of major surgery to get things back on track, in my opinion. Past participants should probably be pinged.—Alalch E. 21:58, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
Pinging all editors from the previous RM who have not yet made any comments in this RM—@BenzoAid, Elyps21, Estar8806, Festucalex, FusionSub, L'Mainerque, RaskBunzzz, and WWGB: Thank you for participating in this RM as well, which is intended to show whether there is consensus for including or excluding the year.—Alalch E. 00:01, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
@Jim Michael 2: Forgot to ping you along with the rest (see the above comment).—Alalch E. 13:09, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Support This is what most people internationally will think of. PatGallacher (talk) 23:29, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
Support No year needed. --RaskBunzzz (talk) 00:34, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Support per nom—also, no need to do a tactical Cirque du Soleil maneuver by closing this RM and un-closing the previous one: just follow through with this one and save the hassle. 〜 Festucalex • talk 03:12, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom. // 💪Benzo Aid💪 🖊️ 06:04, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Support per COMMONNAME & NOYEAR because it's a well-publicised major event that's unique for its location. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:14, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Note that the article should only be moved by an admin if it's still linked from the Main Page. Only admins can edit the Main Page and WP:MPNOREDIRECT applies. Schwede 66 03:43, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Support: WP:COMMONNAME. Most people are referring to this at the Belgrade School Shooting (at least most newspapers and news companies in the UK as well as many other countries) FusionSub (talk) 09:00, 18 May 2023 (UTC)