Talk:Bard College at Simon's Rock/Archive 1
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 07:17, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Requested move
Simon's Rock College → Simon's Rock College of Bard … Move should not be controversial as school article titles are to be the complete name of the school and not a shortened version thereof. (Move is obstructed by history on redirect.)
- Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
- Support per reasoning above. ⇒ BRossow T/C 17:08, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose: Simon's Rock College is the common name of the school. Furthermore, Simon's Rock College is acceptable, and if a name is acceptable, it can stick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jesuschex (talk • contribs)
- Quoting from WP:NC#School names: "School article titles should use the full official name of the school as provided by the school itself" ⇒ BRossow T/C 00:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- The two are interchangeable as the "full official name," with Simon's Rock College being the common name. Just take a look at the website: the title is "Simon's Rock College," as is the copyright notice, while the name on the page itself is "Simon's Rock College of Bard." Additionally, a Google search on simons-rock.edu yields 452 results for "Simon's Rock College" and 179 for "Simon's Rock College of Bard." Jesuschex 01:56, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- On a single page the school refers to itself as "Simon's Rock," "Simon's Rock College," and "Simon's Rock College of Bard."[1] Nevertheless, it is obvious that the "full official name of the school" is the latter of the three and that any other name is a shortened version thereof. The admissions application[2] uses the full name at the very top of the application form as well. Wikipedia guidelines dictate that the full name be used. It's pretty straightforward. And if you want to get into lookups, WHOIS shows that the domain is registered to "Simon's Rock College of Bard." Your Google search results don't mean a whole lot, unfortunately. A Google search of the school's site for "Simon's Rock" gives more 40,000 hits[3], so should the name be further abbreviated? By your logic, apparently yes. This is nothing personal — strictly Wikipedia guidelines for naming school articles, which are very straightforward and unambiguous. --BRossow 02:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- If it's so "straightforward and unambiguous," why didn't you make the move yourself? And yes, I'm aware of the number of mentions of "Simon's Rock College" and "Simon's Rock College of Bard." I go there. And you use my Google search criterion as the sole criterion supporting my argument. It's not. What it boils down to is that both "Simon's Rock College" and "Simon's Rock College of Bard" are acceptable as the "full official name of the school." I can find hundreds of examples of "Simon's Rock College," you can find hundreds of examples of "Simon's Rock College of Bard."Jesuschex 03:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't make the move myself because, as noted in the move request, the move is obstructed because of an edit history on the target page. (In short, because there has been more than one edit on the target page, which is currently a redirect, non-admins cannot make the move and have to go through this process instead.) It's nice that you're a student at the school, but I don't see how that supports your position. (If anything, it suggests that you may not be as objective as an "outsider.") "Simon's Rock College" is clearly not the full name of the school. It may be acceptable for most purposes in identifying the school and even for use in official publications, but I absolutely guarantee you that no one in the administration or on the board would say that "Simon's Rock College" is the full, complete name of the institution. Heck, even the first sentence in this very article makes that point clear. --BRossow 05:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree that "Simon's Rock College of Bard" is more full than "Simon's Rock College." I just don't see what's wrong with keeping "Simon's Rock College" as the title, since it is acceptable as the "full official name of the school." I present you with examples: "The Leland Stanford Junior University" page's title is not "Leland Stanford Junior University," as the guidelines would supposedly dictate. It is, instead, Stanford University. Furthermore, some of the SUNY schools' titles are similar. The title for "The State University of New York at Stony Brook" is not "State University of New York at Stony Brook," as the guidelines dictate. It is Stony Brook University. "University at Albany, State University of New York" shouldn't be University at Albany, should it? All of those pages, as well as Simon's Rock College have the fuller name at the beginning of the article, but since the other name is acceptable, it's used as the title. Jesuschex 14:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- I'm reminded of the old adage about all one's friends jumping off a bridge. That other articles may also be titled incorrectly in no way dictates that this one should be similarly mistitled. I fail to see the basis of your opposition to the move, particularly given that (1) you acknowledge that the article title is not the full name of the school and (2) you're by now also familiar with Wikipedia's school article naming guidelines. Frankly, it seems like an ownership issue. As for your insistence that the current abbreviated title is somehow the "full official name" ... that just mystifies me as it's beyond question that, while perhaps acceptable, it is certainly not the full name of the school. ⇒ BRossow T/C 15:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Once again, my opposition to the move is the fact that the current title is acceptable as the full and complete title, and the title that you want is unnecessarily long. I give examples to show that a title that is not the legal, full name given by the school (such as "Leland Stanford Junior University") is perfectly acceptable. The reason why I use examples is because Wikipedia is only loosely driven by policies. Every policy has its exceptions; just because there's an exception does not mean the rule doesn't apply anymore. Additionally, please stop misquoting me. Jesuschex 17:23, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- When/where did I misquote you? And how does adding eight characters (six letters, two spaces) to the article title make it "unnecessarily long"? And how would this detract from the article? It wouldn't make it harder to locate in a search. It is the name actually used in this very article. It is the actual name of the school. I don't see why being completely correct is such an issue for you and why, if length is such a critical issue for you, you aren't pushing for it to be moved to "Simon's Rock" instead. ⇒ BRossow T/C 17:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- "you acknowledge that the article title is not the full name of the school ..." I did not say that. I said that the proposed change would me "more" full, but that the current name is also "acceptable as the 'full official name of the school.'" Changing the name would not detract from the article, but neither would keeping the current name. As I've stated multiple times, the current one is acceptable. You've failed to show how the current name would detract from the article, save for some WP policies that are selectively enforced. And, as I've also stated before, I am in fact not pushing for a change to "Simon's Rock," since that is definitely not the full name, and I have not argued as such. Jesuschex 18:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- There's no such thing as "'more' full." There's full and then there's over-full. Being full is like being pregnant: either you are or you aren't. In this case, either the school's name is complete or it's incomplete. If "Simon's Rock College of Bard" is complete, then logically "Simon's Rock College" is incomplete. This discussion is pointless and I'm not going to add to the noise here. It's clear what the naming guideline is and it's clear that it's not being followed here. Whether or not other articles are out of compliance is wholly irrelevant — it's the whole "friends jumping off a bridge" thing. An admin will make a decision based on Wikipedia policy. Thanks for your input on the proposed move. ⇒ BRossow T/C 19:17, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- "you acknowledge that the article title is not the full name of the school ..." I did not say that. I said that the proposed change would me "more" full, but that the current name is also "acceptable as the 'full official name of the school.'" Changing the name would not detract from the article, but neither would keeping the current name. As I've stated multiple times, the current one is acceptable. You've failed to show how the current name would detract from the article, save for some WP policies that are selectively enforced. And, as I've also stated before, I am in fact not pushing for a change to "Simon's Rock," since that is definitely not the full name, and I have not argued as such. Jesuschex 18:29, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- When/where did I misquote you? And how does adding eight characters (six letters, two spaces) to the article title make it "unnecessarily long"? And how would this detract from the article? It wouldn't make it harder to locate in a search. It is the name actually used in this very article. It is the actual name of the school. I don't see why being completely correct is such an issue for you and why, if length is such a critical issue for you, you aren't pushing for it to be moved to "Simon's Rock" instead. ⇒ BRossow T/C 17:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Once again, my opposition to the move is the fact that the current title is acceptable as the full and complete title, and the title that you want is unnecessarily long. I give examples to show that a title that is not the legal, full name given by the school (such as "Leland Stanford Junior University") is perfectly acceptable. The reason why I use examples is because Wikipedia is only loosely driven by policies. Every policy has its exceptions; just because there's an exception does not mean the rule doesn't apply anymore. Additionally, please stop misquoting me. Jesuschex 17:23, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- I'm reminded of the old adage about all one's friends jumping off a bridge. That other articles may also be titled incorrectly in no way dictates that this one should be similarly mistitled. I fail to see the basis of your opposition to the move, particularly given that (1) you acknowledge that the article title is not the full name of the school and (2) you're by now also familiar with Wikipedia's school article naming guidelines. Frankly, it seems like an ownership issue. As for your insistence that the current abbreviated title is somehow the "full official name" ... that just mystifies me as it's beyond question that, while perhaps acceptable, it is certainly not the full name of the school. ⇒ BRossow T/C 15:01, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree that "Simon's Rock College of Bard" is more full than "Simon's Rock College." I just don't see what's wrong with keeping "Simon's Rock College" as the title, since it is acceptable as the "full official name of the school." I present you with examples: "The Leland Stanford Junior University" page's title is not "Leland Stanford Junior University," as the guidelines would supposedly dictate. It is, instead, Stanford University. Furthermore, some of the SUNY schools' titles are similar. The title for "The State University of New York at Stony Brook" is not "State University of New York at Stony Brook," as the guidelines dictate. It is Stony Brook University. "University at Albany, State University of New York" shouldn't be University at Albany, should it? All of those pages, as well as Simon's Rock College have the fuller name at the beginning of the article, but since the other name is acceptable, it's used as the title. Jesuschex 14:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't make the move myself because, as noted in the move request, the move is obstructed because of an edit history on the target page. (In short, because there has been more than one edit on the target page, which is currently a redirect, non-admins cannot make the move and have to go through this process instead.) It's nice that you're a student at the school, but I don't see how that supports your position. (If anything, it suggests that you may not be as objective as an "outsider.") "Simon's Rock College" is clearly not the full name of the school. It may be acceptable for most purposes in identifying the school and even for use in official publications, but I absolutely guarantee you that no one in the administration or on the board would say that "Simon's Rock College" is the full, complete name of the institution. Heck, even the first sentence in this very article makes that point clear. --BRossow 05:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- If it's so "straightforward and unambiguous," why didn't you make the move yourself? And yes, I'm aware of the number of mentions of "Simon's Rock College" and "Simon's Rock College of Bard." I go there. And you use my Google search criterion as the sole criterion supporting my argument. It's not. What it boils down to is that both "Simon's Rock College" and "Simon's Rock College of Bard" are acceptable as the "full official name of the school." I can find hundreds of examples of "Simon's Rock College," you can find hundreds of examples of "Simon's Rock College of Bard."Jesuschex 03:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- On a single page the school refers to itself as "Simon's Rock," "Simon's Rock College," and "Simon's Rock College of Bard."[1] Nevertheless, it is obvious that the "full official name of the school" is the latter of the three and that any other name is a shortened version thereof. The admissions application[2] uses the full name at the very top of the application form as well. Wikipedia guidelines dictate that the full name be used. It's pretty straightforward. And if you want to get into lookups, WHOIS shows that the domain is registered to "Simon's Rock College of Bard." Your Google search results don't mean a whole lot, unfortunately. A Google search of the school's site for "Simon's Rock" gives more 40,000 hits[3], so should the name be further abbreviated? By your logic, apparently yes. This is nothing personal — strictly Wikipedia guidelines for naming school articles, which are very straightforward and unambiguous. --BRossow 02:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- The two are interchangeable as the "full official name," with Simon's Rock College being the common name. Just take a look at the website: the title is "Simon's Rock College," as is the copyright notice, while the name on the page itself is "Simon's Rock College of Bard." Additionally, a Google search on simons-rock.edu yields 452 results for "Simon's Rock College" and 179 for "Simon's Rock College of Bard." Jesuschex 01:56, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Quoting from WP:NC#School names: "School article titles should use the full official name of the school as provided by the school itself" ⇒ BRossow T/C 00:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Discussion
Many official publications refer to "Simon's Rock College", but the current official name of the school is Simon's Rock College of Bard. I can see arguments (within the wikipedia guidelines) for moving to "Simon's Rock College of Bard", as well as arugments for sticking with "Simon's Rock College" as the common name (note that Leland Stanford Junior University is a redirect to Stanford University, not the other way around). I don't have a strong opinion either way. What I do feel strongly about is that all common and previous official names of the college (yes, there were several, all containing "Simon's Rock") redirect to the article. That is, "Simon's Rock", "Simon's Rock College", "Simon's Rock College of Bard", "Simon's Rock of Bard College" (incidentally, what the whois record was originally registered to), "Simon's Rock Early College", and the other previous names I've forgotten. --Gruepig 06:27, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Add any additional comments
- Support I've reviewed this matter. The title of the article should match the correct name for the subject. Doing so avaids confusion. Now if the name were something archaic (the college stopped legally using the correct name and have since changed the name) then the change wouldn't make logical sense. The name of the college is what it is, and emotional arguments aside, it must be consistant with its entry. Stude62 13:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
General discussion
Does this page actually merit a wikipedia article???????? I feel not... KJ
- I think so. It's not a big school, but it is unique because of it's focus on younger than average students, which I think makes it interesting.
- Dragons flight 06:49, Oct 5, 2003 (UTC)
This article needs work. It's way too chatty; it reads like a page out of some Princeton Review guide to colleges. Wikipedia is not the place to talk about your personal college experiences; it's an encyclopedia. Darkcore 03:08, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Is the origin of the name known? AdamAtlas 00:06, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Simon's Rock is a local landmark, essentially a big rock from which one used to be able to view much of the surrounding Berkshire Mountains, but right now its in a pretty forested area. I don't know if this is relevant to the article GabrielF 04:09, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Mayday has been celebrated at Simon's Rock at least since 1995, not 2000 (unless it was an unofficial celebration before then.)
- As far as I know, there was nothing official before 2000. In 2000 a handful of students (Student Labor Coalition) asked for formal recognition, and the request gained faculty support. On May 1, 2000, a handful of labor-related seminars were held, and some staff members were given the afternoon off as a paid holiday. Later that week the academic senate (or possibly the faculty senate) voted (by a large majority) to put May Day (International Workers Day) on the official college calendar and give faculty/staff the day off. As for the actual implementation, most of the calendars I've seen don't list May Day. However, in the following years, May Day has been well-publicized, seminars have been held in the afternoon (instead of regular classes), and student volunteers have allowed some of the staff to take the day off. (Note: I left SR in 2003, so this information may not be current.)
- --Gruepig 04:58, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
More info needed, tone change
I agree with the first poster about the tone of the article. I also think that a LOT more information could be added . . . but am not exactly up to writing it . . . --Fimoc 19:12, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
- Well that's helpful of you.
- --retinarow 02:11, Dec 15, 2005
I erased the llamacon link at the bottom, as it is extremely unrelated to the school. The only related bits is that a Simon's rock student organized it and it's being held on the campus, but with no other information about it, it should not be listed.
- --retinarow 1:44, Feb 6, 2006
- I'm a little confused. It's started by a student and run on campus. Doesn't that make it related to the college? --FOo 07:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, the entire constaff (30+) is composed of SRC students and faculty, so I'd say that makes it relevant enough.
- As there's no information about llamacon in the article, and the link doesn't talk about SRC per se, I advocate removing it from the external links. However, perhaps someone who is interested could add a section listing events hosted at SRC. This could include Llamacon and International Workers Day (already mentioned in the article), as well as Mayfest, Young Writers Workshop, Early College High School Teaching Seminar, etc. --Gruepig 03:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
- True, but comparing it to other colleges' pages, I'd say that a student-run event, club, or otherwise, should be referenced in something like a Student Life section. Being in the external links section is just plain out of place. Will the average Wikipedia user, reading this page, be interested in Llamacon? Furthermore, I believe it falls under number four in Links to normally avoid (it may also fall under number nine, depending on who added it). It should be deleted
Llamacon Again
In an attempt to prevent an edit war, we should talk about the Llamacon thing. I think that if we want to keep it, there should be a section for similar things, like "Student Life" or something. It's most definitely not a "factoid." Factoids, in my opinion, are unique, interesting facts about Simon's Rock. For the most part, events held at Simon's Rock should not be listed here (with the exception of International Workers Day, because that's a very unique thing). -64.209.126.232 05:37, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
No? No one cares about it? -64.209.126.232 22:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Distinguishing characteristics
"Simon's Rock students are known for their political awareness."
How is this a distinguishing characteristic? In fact, how is this different than any other college or university in the United States? Surgo 16:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
- Uhm, it isn't. And it's a very time-sensitive statement, too. Simon's Rock students of Eli Pariser's class were known for their political loudness. Simon's Rock students of my class were known for doing a lot of acid. --FOo 05:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
- I'll be deleting it, then. Again. Hopefully the person who is reverting my changes will read this. Surgo 03:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
- I don't want to start an edit war; I'm more of a fan of discussion.
- You need to look at the other characteristics in that list. Ask yourself if any is "distinguishing" under your definition. Very small schools with high faculty/student ratios are quite common. As are refering to faculty/staff on a first-name basis, small classes, and discussion-oriented classes. Not many schools are second-most-gay-friendly, but many schools are in fact gay-friendly. Jesuschex 04:29, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
- Then why is there even a list? None of those seem very distinguishing, going by the dictionary definition here: http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=distinguishing
- However, the political awareness thing is probably the least distinguishing. Name me a college or university in the United States where the students /aren't/ politically aware. You probably can't (I sure can't). 192.246.234.203 19:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- Oops, that was me logged out. Surgo 06:38, 30 April 2006 (UTC)