Talk:Aion (deity)

From WikiProjectMed
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Confusion

Most of what I've come across seems to represent Aion and Chronos as the same (not to be conflated with Kronos/Cronus/Saturn aka Zeus' father). The primary place where the difference between the Aion and Chronos is noted seems to be the wikipedia pages for Aion and Chronos themselves, which is obviously problematic. It doesn't help that the primordial Chronos/Khronos/Aion/Aeon was sometimes conflated with the Titan Cronus/Kronos/Saturn, aka Zeus' father (and also at times referred to as Khronos) in ancient works, primarily due to similarities in their names.

There's also the matter of language itself and the meanings of words like chronos, kairos, and lion which can lead to confusion. Foxtrot738 (talk) 20:12, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Levi article (which published a mosaic from Antioch featuring "Aion" as one of several "Chronoi") makes the case for the distinction, citing the mosaic itself; Palatine Anthology 9.51 and Plato, Timaeus 37D, Aristotle, De Caelo 1.279a, Plutarch, De E apud Delphos 19 & 20 and a large number of Neoplatonists. This is further backed up by the linguistic meaning of the two names: "Aion" is from ἀεί "always", while "Chronos"/χρόνος is "time." Furius (talk) 20:45, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The entire sentance "The "time" represented by Aion is unbounded, in contrast to Chronos as empirical time divided into past, present, and future." was supported by reference to Levi's article. I don't think that it is acceptable to overturn that article on the strength of a blog-post and a website - neither of which mention "Aion." Furius (talk) 20:47, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is no question of the semantic differences existing between chronos and aion, nor the individual personification of each part of the chronoi in art and history (which Levi does indeed support). It becomes less clear when we begin looking at deification and not simple personification. Levi's work itself notes various interpretations. There may be some evidence of distinct deification of Aion (especially looking other religious histories) but those aren't the only representations of this figure in ancient history. If anything, maybe this all demonstrates the need to recognize these various representations.Foxtrot738 (talk) 21:42, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Read or at least ctrl/cmd-F the source. Auerbach doesn't mention Aion but the other sources does repeatedly (yes I should have listed that one first and attempted to change the source order before you began overturning the changes without actually reading the sources). Both sources draw upon/cite ancient works.

I've read the Levi article and it doesn't seem to have enough depth to really support the difference or sameness of the primordial God Aion and/or Chronos.

There is a semantic distinction between the words Aion and Chronos, no argument there. Foxtrot738 (talk) 20:58, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Neither Auerbach nor Theoi are reliable sources as defined by WP:RS. Paul August ☎ 21:04, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine and it should be looked into more deeply anyway (though in reference to Furius it can't be said that Theoi doesn't mention Aion, but if the source itself isn't reliable enough that's a different matter). On sources, the number of representations of Aion drawn upon by Levi and their time periods raise some questions and even confusions. It's clear that Aion is represented and even personified in art and history as part of the chronoi (as noted by Levi) but the individual deification of Aion seems murkier, from individual deification of Aion (i.e. separate from chronos) to a mortal Aion, to Aion as son of Zeus to Aion as Saturn (cronus) to Aion simply as a personified part of the chronoi.Foxtrot738 (talk) 21:30, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Theoi article you linked to "KRONOS (Cronus)" does not mention Aion -- you probably meant instead this article KHRONOS (Chronos)]. In any case as I said above Theoi is not a reliable source. Paul August ☎ 21:36, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Then that's obviously my fault for listing the wrong source, though, as you rightly note, better sources are needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foxtrot738 (talk • contribs) 21:47, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Robert Hannah "Praevolante Nescio Qua Ingenti Humana Specie ... A Reassessment of the Winged Genius on the Base of the Antonine Column" Papers of the British School at Rome Vol. 57 (1989), pp. 90-105 at p.92-6 mentions both Mithraic Aion and Aion the artistic personification as distinct entities, while discussing why a figure on the Antonine column is not Aion, whom he characterises as "the personification of endless time." On Aion, he further cites: F. Gury, "Aion juvenile et l'anneau zodiacal: l'apparition du motif" Melanges de l'Ecole francaise de Rome: Antiquite 96 (1984) 7-28 and Parrish, Season Mosaics of Roman North Africa (Rome 1984) 46-7. Furius (talk) 22:03, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clean-up

I've found some sources from antiquity, it seems Aion was the supreme deity of the Hellenistic mysteries. I'll spemd some time cleaning up this entry and providing references over the next few months. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.60.23.206 (talk) 06:30, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(First comment)

where is the source of such information? There is really an Anatolian Deity called Aion? I simply can't find any information about it.Alcartur (talk) 03:42, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good question; I've added a citation request. Moonraker12 (talk) 12:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tag

I've removed the merge tag from here. There was no rationale given, and no support after 12 months, so I've deleted it. Moonraker12 (talk) 12:04, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion?

I'm thinking of proposing this article for deletion. It has no sources. The so-called "Roman deity" is not in fact to be distinguished from Aeon, though there were many views of Aion in various sects. It's a very confusing topic, but needs to be treated in a single article. Cynwolfe (talk) 05:17, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"No sources" seems a bit left-handed when I added some a while ago. And I presumed the museum knew what they were talking about.
And I'm not persuaded Aion is the same as aeon, which is more of a philosophical concept than a mythological one. Also, if Aion represents eternity, an aeon doesn't; it is an indeterminate, but finite, period of time. I would agree the words are probably connected, but so are Gemini and Gemini; that doesn't mean they should be in a single article.
I added the Roman stuff when I came across it looking for sources; I was hoping for other people to add what they know. It would be odd if the representation in Sassoferrato was the only instance of this deity. If you know of other examples, do you want to bring them in? Moonraker12 (talk) 14:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
PS The Aeon article has got its own problems; I've addressed them here if you wish to comment. Moonraker12 (talk) 14:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
One of the two "references" is from the National Earth Science Teachers Association — hardly the best source for ancient religion. The other website is not from a museum; that surely can't be what you mean. Aion and Aeon are simply the transliterated Greek vs. the Latin spelling. This is a very complicated deity who shows up in various forms and in various philosophical systems. He appears in "Orphic" religion, Pythagoreanism, and forms of Gnosticism. The first sentence says Aion is a Roman deity, but that would be the divine personification Aeon, the Latin spelling. Then the stub template calls him a Middle East deity. Hellenistic, yes. It's been several years since I read on this subject and am not inclined to go into now; too many other WP articles I've left hanging at the moment. I would just urge both caution and massive amounts of research. Cynwolfe (talk) 04:34, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I‘m all for caution; it just seems to me there’s a story to tell about this one, and deleting it would be the wrong way to go.
It isn’t an area I know much about; I came here originally to find out more!
And the museum I referred to is the Munich Glyptotek, where (presumably) the Sassoferrato mosaic is held, and where (also presumably) the figure is described as Aion.Moonraker12 (talk) 16:33, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The point is not whether the museum would know; the museum was not cited. The link here was to an individual's photo gallery; he took photos and posted them, and his caption for this relief is not a scholarly source. A link to the museum's own description of the mosaic would be a legitimate source. The other source, as I said, is from a science teachers' site — again, not a scholarly source for ancient religious beliefs and practices. The Latin spelling would be Aeon; he is the male equivalent of Aeternitas, but it would be difficult to argue that Aeon can be distinguished from the Orphic, Pythagorean, and Gnostic Aion on the basis of spelling alone, and it would be hard to disentangle these. The mosaic itself has been the object of much scholarship, and could support its own article. But there are varying interpretations of who these figures are, or what the scene represents. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:03, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article is utter nonsense and should be deleted. Better nothing at all than a hasty and misleading commentary as this one is.M1thr0s729 (talk) 22:45, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the pages at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 08:28, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]


– The WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the word Aion, by historical precedence and importance. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 19:17, 8 April 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 01:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, The deity gets 63 percent of relevant pageviews. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 04:54, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose alternative spelling for Aeon which gets the same views. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:24, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'd surmise the vast majority of people typing "Aion" would want to see the deity and not be confusing it for "Aeon", a very common word. As an ancient word, nobody uses "aion" to refer to the time period. I wouldn't be opposed to adding a hatnote, though, in the off chance that someone confuses one for the other.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 10:49, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Retrieved from "https://mdwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Aion_(deity)"