Talk:2021 Rugby League World Cup (disambiguation)

Need for the page

I'm wondering if this pages is necessary seen as 2021 Rugby League World Cup is supposed to give an overview on all tournaments and link to each tournament. Perhaps a redirect to 2021 Rugby League World Cup#Competitions would be better? Mn1548 (talk) 12:04, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

It is necessary because to most people their is one Rugby League World Cup, with multiple other secondary junior topics. This page should have been a hatnote page off the main tournament, to guide the secondary traffic in to the appropriate place.Fleets (talk) 13:43, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

I made this WP:DAB because there were previously over 3 different about hatnotes linked between the different pages. See WP:ONEOTHER. Comment by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 17:49, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

E.g.

Previously on 2021 Rugby League World Cup there was the very long hatnote "This article is about all the rugby league World Cup tournaments that are being held concurrently. For the article just about the men's tournament, see 2021 Rugby League World Cup – Men's tournament. For the article just about the women's tournament, see 2021 Rugby League World Cup – Women's tournament. For the article just about the wheelchair tournament, see 2021 Rugby League World Cup – Wheelchair tournament."

Now because of this DAB there it is just: "This article is about all "2021" rugby league world cups. For other uses, see 2021 Rugby League World Cup (disambiguation)." Comment by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 17:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

^ The above is also in line with guidelines, specifically:

There should be as few hatnotes as possible. One single hatnote, which can accommodate several links, is greatly preferable to two or more

— WP:1HAT

As well as:

If there are two or three other topics, it is still possible to use a hatnote which lists the other topics explicitly, but if this would require too much text (roughly, if the hatnote would extend well over one line on a standard page), then it is better to create a disambiguation page and refer only to that.

— WP:TWOOTHER

Linking the wrong dab primary

Moved from User talk:Fleets:

Please can [ User:Fleets ] stop removing the link to the primary 2021 Rugby League World Cup article on the 2021 Rugby League World Cup (disambiguation) you keep referring to "MOS" but this isn't actually what happens. See MOS:DABPRIMARY. The DAB reflects what the articles say. You are giving a summary of what the 2021 Men's Rugby League World Cup says not the 2021 Rugby League World Cup. Comment by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 15:11, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

There is an overriding clear primary topic. The disambiguation page is the place to make people aware of the other links. Can I please ask you to look at a number of similar competitions where there this is the case; the FA Cup, Prmier League, Challenge Cup, etc.Fleets (talk) 15:13, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes the "disambiguation page is the place to make people aware of other links" but you are not including 2021 Rugby League World Cup the very primary that is why this page is called [[2021 Rugby League World Cup (disambiguation)" otherwise it wouldn't have the "(disambiguation)". The 2022/23 FA Cup doesn't have "Men" in front of it so these examples are irrelevant. You are linking the wrong topic in the introductory line. It is a clear conflict with MOS:DABPRIMARY. Comment by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 15:25, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

After performing a Pageviews Analysis, The Rugby League World Cup has a consistent daily average of around 200 page views going back over the last four years. It is the primary topic, and whilst the disambiguation page should not minimise the secondary competitions, it should not mix the primary in with the secondary. What someone would expect to find at the FA Cup disambiguation is the FA Cup, at the Challenge Cup disambiguation it tells you the primary, the Premier League has the primary, etc, etc. If you don't believe that there is a primary with all the history, then there really is no need for this disambiguation page at all, everything and everyone is equal, with equal weighting, etc. Unfortunately that is not the case, so it must reflect the many paths that people end up at the page, and not a left-turn that we've ended up with, going against other sports, and even our own history.Fleets (talk) 15:32, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

As per MOS:DABPRIMARY policy: "The primary topic is the one reached by using the disambiguation page title without the (disambiguation) qualifier.". Please link policy to validate your changes. If you wish to change how the current articles are formatted discuss on the relevant pages not on the dab. Comment by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 15:34, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Reverted as linked to the page, historically accurated, denotes that there are several going on at the same time alongside the mens competition. It may legitimately refer to three other competitions that will use the short-hand. That is concise and detailed account with links given. I could move things into alphabetical order is make all people equal if you'd like.Fleets (talk) 15:52, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

FA_Cup_(disambiguation) per request.Fleets (talk) 15:55, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

This is not a year's edition DAB. This page you are on is. by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 15:56, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

This isn't about making people "equal". You are not linking the 2021 Rugby League World Cup article that should be in the introductory line as per "the primary topic is the one reached by using the disambiguation page title without the (disambiguation qualifier). Comment by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 15:56, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Ah but history, or the very sharp turn to the left that the 2021 Rugby League World Cup page has taken must reflect both this years page and the past, as otherwise everyone would automatically end up on the right page all the time and there would be no need for disambiguation. It is without doubt the 16th RLWC, this years comp is linked, top national teams take part. This is the 1st time several world cups, beyond the traditional WC, and the first time where they happen broadly concurrently (ie not a fair bit before or after as has previously happened.) The term 2021 Rugby League World Cup may be used as shorthand for any of the four tournaments listed, but we should be clear when there is a clear primary within those four.Fleets (talk) 16:03, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

If you have issue with how this year's page is taken compared to the past discuss it on those pages. The DAB must reflect what pages exist however. by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 16:05, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

See above. Added in collection, to see if collectivization helps smooth things out.Fleets (talk) 16:15, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

I've added "16th staging" next to the article that mentions it and added "collection" next to the article that mentions it. Also consistent with MOS:DABPRIMARY format. by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 16:28, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Reverted as no valid rationale provided for the change.Fleets (talk) 16:35, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby league:

What is the point of a disambiguation page that links to four incredibly uneven tournaments, if you do not pay proper reference to them. We don't seem to have this problem with the Premier League, the FA Cup, the Challenge Cup. There is a clear primary topic when people, and all are referenced.Fleets (talk) 15:42, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Then discuss removing the DAB on a separate topic. This is a DAB page. There is no [YearX]FA Cup/Premier League/Challenge Cup DAB. by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 15:45, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid a cursory search finds those rather large competitions to be disambiguated.Fleets (talk) 15:47, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Link me one DAB about a year's edition of the FA Cup, Premier League, or Challenge Cup. They don't exist. Comment by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 15:49, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

You do know that people look back in time, and that a disambiguation page must allow people to find other articles. It's not a short description page, it's a help function to allow readers who may have been send into an eddie, and get out of the eddie that covers one year, but that year has history, that word has main topic, it has a historical main topic. We mustn't stop people finding the newer terms, but to have a short description in the place of a disambiguation page seems to be going against the intent of having one at all.Fleets (talk) 16:21, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

You do know that this dab is literally about "2021" this isn't a dab about the Rugby League World Cup. But the "2021 Rugby League World Cup". by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 16:24, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Shit, so no one ever put those four words together before this year, fuck me you've been on Wikipedia since September, but that is special. This is not the first ever WC, there is a history, people might know that history, they might not. It is there to help those reading about the subject, and the world that the subject exists in. It is not a short description as you find at the top of many articles, but a tool to assist readers who may be confused with the topic.Fleets (talk) 16:30, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Exactly, hence why I created "2021 Rugby League World Cup (disambiguation)" to navigate between "2021 Rugby League World Cup", "2021 Men's Rugby League World Cup", "2021 Women's Rugby League World Cup", "2021 Wheelchair Rugby League World Cup", and the "2021 Physical Disability Rugby League World Cup". The introductory line on the DAB reflects topic that is reached by using the disambiguation page title without the (disambiguation) qualifier, rather than having the introductory line about the men's article which makes no sense given the dab is about all of them. Comment by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 16:36, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

If you didn't know that the RLWC was started by the French in the 1950s that probably says alot about why you're not a member of WPRL. Everyone is welcome in RL, but if you fail to comprehend that there may be other ways in which people search, other competitions beforehand and other sports doing it in the exact way that you have been shown, the blind ideology won't win. A short description is different from a disambiguation page. I do hope you're a fan, as lord the sport could need it, but I will again invite you to think of how people may choose to navigate, beyond the way you do, open that mind up, see what other sports do.Fleets (talk) 16:46, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

"If you didn't know that the RLWC was started by the French in the 1950s..." – I don't recall where I've proven that I didn't.

"...if you fail to comprehend that there may be other ways in which people search" – We are on about a DAB. People click on a DAB called "2021 Rugby League World Cup (disambiguation) – on that DAB people see the introductory line "The 2021 Rugby League World Cup is a collection of world cups in the sport of rugby league" and then see individual entries listed of specific tournaments; the men's, women's, the wheelchair, and the PD.

"other competitions beforehand and other sports doing it in the exact way that you have been shown" – where? There are no other DABs about a singe edition of a sports tournament. Link me if I am wrong.

"A short description is different from a disambiguation page" – again, I don't recall where I've proven that I didn't.

"blind ideology won't win" – What on earth are you even on about. Comment by James Lewis Bedford (talk) 17:00, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on 2021 Rugby League World Cup (disambiguation) and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

I agree with James Lewis Bedford that (a) 2021 Rugby League World Cup should be linked in the beginning (it appears there's now agreement on that point) and that (b) that link should be described as "a collection of world cups" per the target article. We can't link to 2021 Rugby League World Cup, the current primary topic, while describing 2021 Men's Rugby League World Cup. If the men's cup is the primary topic, Fleets (or anyone, really) may want to start a requested move discussion. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:20, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks for the 3o, happy to take that position on board, and also wait for a position from a peer with the RL community, as so far there has been only my voice from that project.Fleets (talk) 18:32, 28 October 2022 (UTC)