Help talk:IPA/Manx

Some minor points

Excellent start to a much needed page. However I have noticed a few minor details needing correcting. I thought it best to bring it up at the discussion page first before any implementation.

• boyl should read as boayl, meaning place, point, location, spot, etc.
• The <bb> in the middle of the word cabbal is pronounced /-v-/ and not /-b-/ in standard Manx, although there are some incidents of a /-b-/ pronounciation in some recordings.
• A footnote should perhaps be made at beggan - while it is true that many pronounce the word with /bʲ/, there are also many who do not.
• None of the words listed at "v" should be there - none of them are pronounced with a voiced labiodental fricative. Perhaps words such as vacseen, vaghtoor, vac, vaik, etc. would be better placed here.
• The -gg- in ruggit is actually pronounced as /-ɣʲ-/ and not as /-gʲ-/.
• The word Nherin should be written as Nerin. Nherin is an infrequent spelling of the word Nerin, with the latter having official status.
• The <ss> in the word cassid is actually pronounced /-z-/.
• Regarding shoaghty - this is not an attested word in Manx? Is it possible it is an incorrect spelling? Perhaps the word shoh meaning this, here, etc. would be more appropriate?
• The <h> in the word huyr is not pronounced with a /xʲ-/. It is actually pronounced simply /h-/, being a lenition of <sh> (compare with Irish lenition of saor -> shaor.
• quuaagh should be rewritten as quaagh - there is only one <u> in the word.
• The <wh> in whilleen is pronounced /hw/ and not /w/, and again is a lenited form of the word quilleen
• The words glaine, teth, cheil (perhaps cheill was the word in question here) are not attested Manx words.
• The emphasis on the <eay> in eayst is incorrect. The word is actually pronounced /ˌeːəst/. Therefore it should read as eayst.
• Similarly for loayrt. The /oː/ in question occurs on the <oa> combination, with the <y> having a distinct schwa pronounciation. In other words, the word is pronounced as /ˌloːərt/.

Kind regards, --MacTire02 (talk) 12:25, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

All very good points - feel free to go for it and sorry about the teth/glaine, I used the Scots Gaelic one as a template and these two slipped through. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:27, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

No probs. I'll get onto it now. Thanks for creating the page. --MacTire02 (talk) 12:35, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

You're very welcome - and thanks for the amendments, I'm in a bit of a rush today and better not to leave errors out there for too long! Akerbeltz (talk) 13:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Unnecessary notes

I am taking attention to reducing the number of footnotes in some of these IPA for X pages. These pronunciation keys are designed primarily for readers wanting to understand the language-specific IPA transcriptions they encounter in Wikipedia articles. We shouldn't swamp them with irrelevant details. Because this information may still be pertinent to the project, I have duplicated the notes below rather than try to find a place for them. This is irrespective of whether I think these claims are true or whether they are sourced. I will leave it to other editors to move the information to the appropriate article space or check that it already is. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 00:04, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

• An offglide after an initial f
• [d̪, d̪ð, ð] are in allophonic variation
• Has a palatalised allophone /ŋʲ/ near front vowels

Diacritics and need for a general overhaul

Continuing on from the discussion at my own talk page and following on from this edit and my own subsequent revert and further modification, and based on the current content in this guide it is obviously necessary to discuss how to further improve this guide. Aeusoes1 feels that there is possibly no need for the diacritics in the {{IPA-gv}} templates throughout the encyclopaedia. However, personally I feel that they are necessary. Manx, like Irish and Scottish Gaelic, but unlike most of the world's largest languages distinguishes between flavours of consonant - broad vs. slender or velarised vs. palatalised consonants. Manx, like Irish and Scottish Gaelic, but again unlike most of the world's largest languages, pronounces the velarised consonants <d>, <l>, <n>, <t> with a distinctive dental quality (for a dental <d>, the sound is somewhere between the <d> in "den" and the <th> in "then". I do however feel that there is possible no need for the representation of the aspirated consonant which is represented by the following symbol: ʰ

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greately appreciated. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 18:00, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

My thinking was that we don't need both the dental and velarized diacritics. Given what you've said above, it seems like a velarized/palatalized (e.g. lˠ/lʲ) pairing might be simple and appropriate. However, WP:IPA for Irish and WP:IPA for Scottish Gaelic utilize both dental and velarized diacritics, so it's not like it would be untoward to put both. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 18:50, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the main sticking point has to be the definition for the IPA guide. Is it supposed to be a rough idea as to the pronunciation of words in Manx, or is it supposed to be as close as possible to an accurate pronunciation of the words in question? Before we move forward I think we should probably clarify the purpose of the guide (beyond what we already know :) ). ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 21:29, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

My preference is that it should be broad, so that it's not so rough that we lose phonemic oppositions but not so abstract that we grossly mischaracterize the pronunciation. This is why our Spanish transcriptions don't put dental diacritics on the dental stops and why we don't typically put the labiodental nasal for any language but we also present a lot of the vowel allophony of Russian, even though it's not phonemic. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 22:01, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)