Help talk:Archiving (plain and simple)

Great initiative!

I just want to say that I really like this idea. It is the simplest way to recommend a really good auto archiving setup. Here are some thoughts though:

• Should we perhaps display a sample archive box generated by this code? That would also show that the page is archived every 30 days which currently isn't mentioned.
• Is minarchthreads good to include here? It's not immediately obvious what it does and can cause confusion about why an ancient thread is never archived and I don't really see a good reason to include it other than perhaps minimizing watchlist entries for users who show bot edits.

We really should make it a one template thing but that would require major changes to archiving bots. I'm quite tempted to make my own one with the best parts from the current two and proper defaults and taking settings from {{Archives}} or {{Talk header}}. I'm not that tempted to make sure it has a 100% uptime for the coming decade+ if I don't get a second maintainer. I should really write my archiving manifesto in the next few weeks and start trying to implement it. --Trialpears (talk) 12:46, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@Trialpears, whoops, sorry, missed this.

It would be great to display a sample box so people will know "This is what you should see."

I don't care at all whether we include minarchthreads, not absolutely sure what it even means. Doesn't archive unless at least two are old enough and (in this case) there are at least five more threads on the page? Doesn't start creating a new archive until those conditions are met? :D Whatever you think is best is fine by me, for any of the parameters.

All I was trying to do here was create something very simple that anyone could follow without having to read a long page, figure out which section they needed to be using, make a decision about which bot for reasons they probably don't even understand, follow multiple steps, not forget to put the search box in, etc., etc. One 2-part step: copy this, paste it there. Voila! Archives. My feeling was that we were probably ending up with people either throwing up their hands and moving on without setting up archives, or getting halfway there -- forgetting to go back for the archive box template, for instance. All I'm trying to do is make this dead simple. —valereee (talk) 11:10, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Trialpears and Valereee: If you wanted to go for a 1 template idea. You can use the |archivebox=yes of {{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis}} to automatically generate an archive box. Example: User talk:GeneralNotability. Terasail^[✉️] 15:00, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

You're right about what minarchthreads does. I've seen confusion about why things aren't archived when using the parameter and I don't see much of a reason to have it (possibly watchlist pollution for people who include bots?). I implemented my suggestions and made some other minor changes.

I am aware of User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis boxes and it is quite nice, the problem being that it's not that well known which I feel like is a big virtue when gicing recommendations. It will also (hopefully) be rendered obsolete by my future plans discussed at User:Trialpears/Archiving manifesto and the corresponding talk page. --Trialpears (talk) 19:42, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

That's fine, but if you ping me when you do start a discussion, I am an experienced non-tech guinea pig. :) I can f up any new technical solution. And happy to do it. :D —valereee (talk) 20:01, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

substing

Hey, @Qwerfjkl, I added that at Talk:List of Lehi members and it doesn't provide a search box? —valereee (talk) 18:46, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee I think {{Subst:Setup auto archiving|archives=yes}} should add that. ― Qwerfjkltalk 20:11, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Yep, that did it! So is there any reason we shouldn't just remove the more complicated template? —valereee (talk) 21:03, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee It would be fairly easy to make {{Setup Cluebot archiving}}, and then it's just a matter of choosing a bot. (I'm currently trying to add the navigation capability in {{talk header}} - see Template:Setup auto archiving/sandbox.) ― Qwerfjkltalk 21:14, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Qwerfjkl, no choosing! :D What I want to do here, with this instruction, is give people who don't want to have to read, learn, make an assessment in order to choose which bot to use. The whole point is to avoid a help page that is ten pages long and requires someone to know things. That discourages people who don't know what they're doing from setting up an archive on a page that needs it.

Whichever bot is most likely to be best for the most pages is the one I think we should provide the simplest-possible instructions for. Copy, paste, done. If someone else comes along later and says, "Oh, this archives is more appropriate for a different bot", they can make that change. —valereee (talk) 21:29, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee I think it would be simplest to just keep the current template ({{Setup auto archiving}}). Besides, Lowercase Sigmabot III is used more, so it must be better. ― Qwerfjkltalk 21:32, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Hey, @Qwerfjkl, by 'the current template' do you mean the one that was there before the subst one was added? —valereee (talk) 21:36, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee the current template ({{Setup auto archiving}}) - sorry if I didn't make that obvious. ― Qwerfjkltalk 21:38, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, @Qwerfjkl, I don't mean to be dense, but I'm not following. Replace what (in the current instructions) with that template? And which parameters do we need to fill in to get an archives search box?

I am very stupid with templates. All I want is for someone to tell me "copy exactly this and paste it here". I literally put this instruction page together for myself because I couldn't convince the folks at the main help archives page to make me only have to copy one template instead of two. —valereee (talk) 21:53, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee Replace the current instructions (that are longer and use ClueBot) with {{subst:Setup auto archiving|archives=yes}}, which would do the same (but use Lowercase sigmabot III). ― Qwerfjkltalk 22:00, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

And how do I use Lowercase sigmabot III? :D —valereee (talk) 22:02, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee Something like this - see User:Lowercase sigmabot III/Archive HowTo.

{{User:MiszaBot/config
| algo                = old(30d)
| archive             = User talk:Example/Archive %(counter)d
| counter             = 1
| maxarchivesize      = 150K
| archiveheader       = {{Automatic archive navigator}}
| minthreadstoarchive = 1
| minthreadsleft      = 4
}}

 ― Qwerfjkltalk 22:11, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

So Miszabot=lowercase sigmabot III? —valereee (talk) 22:24, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee Yes. ― Qwerfjkltalk 22:26, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Hm...the main archiving page says lowercase sigmabot III won't archive sections that don't have a signature. I've seen that multiple times, sections ten+ years old that have never been archived because the section wasn't signed, so there's always a section or two on top of the page that are from newbs, often from cranks. And no one at the talk even realizes how old they are, because they weren't signed. That seems like a huge downside. The only listed downside for cluebot is it can take several days to do the first archive, which doesn't seem like an issue, and that it doesn't work for pages that are linked to by thousands of other pages, which isn't an issue for probably all but a very few pages. I think we should stay with cluebot as the default. —valereee (talk) 22:35, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee I'll try to create a template to simplify this (so you just add {{subst:Setup Cluebot archiving}} instead of that large amount of text). ― Qwerfjkltalk 22:38, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

That would be great! I'm sorry I'm so dense on this stuff. If I go more than a couple months between using a particular template, I have to reteach it to myself again. When I was 28, I was the quickest study in the room. That is no longer true. —valereee (talk) 22:47, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee  Done:
{{Setup cluebot archiving|archives=yes}} should replace the text. ― Qwerfjkltalk 14:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@Qwerfjkl I used that at Talk:List of gestures and it broke? Did I do something wrong? —valereee (talk) 14:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, weird...it gave me this odd bit of code on the talk, and then three minutes later a bot came by and fixed it? —valereee (talk) 14:47, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee Oops, I meant {{subst:Setup cluebot archiving}}. The template was automatically substituted by User:AnomieBOT. ― Qwerfjkltalk 16:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@Qwerfjkl Okay, tested {{subst:Setup cluebot archiving|archives=yes}} at Talk:Incunable, and it seems to work great! Thanks! I've replaced it on the page, would you check my work? —valereee (talk) 17:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee ✓ Looks fine to me. Hopefully, Trialpears' archiving manifesto will simplify this more. ― Qwerfjkltalk 18:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Looking forward to seeing it! Thanks again for all your work, this is great! —valereee (talk) 18:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

question

@Qwerfjkl, another user is coming along behind me adding something that turns the archives I've just set up red, and then I guess a bot is supposed to come along again later and turn them blue again, and it's because Cluebot doesn't allow blank parameters? This is an experienced and I'm sure well-intentioned editor, but I don't understand what it's about and whether the template on the help page needs changed? —valereee (talk) 15:13, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee, the only changes I can see are removed whitespace, which @Sawol has already added to the template, and the use of
|archivebox=yes |box-advert=yes instead of {{archives}}. The template on the help page probably won't be changed, but I have no objection to not using {{Archives}}. ― Qwerfjkltalk 16:37, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

We both know I have no idea what is going on. :) Whatever it is, I just want to make sure I'm not inadvertently causing someone else to have to do extra work. :D —valereee (talk) 16:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I revised your ClueBot misuses at Talk:2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism, Talk:Incunable, Talk:Kofta, Talk:List of gestures, Talk:Pimiento, Talk:Ppcocaine, Talk:Vegaphobia. Misuses are blanks between = and Talk:~. Blank parameters generated Talk:2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism/Archives/ 1, Talk:Kofta/Archives/ 1, .... Be careful not to type inserted blanks, and misspelled underscores, etc. of the parameter while using ClueBot. And I recommend that auto archiving be used if its talk page's size is more than about 80K bytes. Sawol (talk) 03:15, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm putting the instructions back to using the previous templates while this gets worked out, as I have no idea what the problem is or how to fix it. —valereee (talk) 16:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

You can use {{subst:Setup cluebot archiving|archives=yes}}. I fixed Template:Setup cluebot archiving. Refer to its revision history. Sawol (talk) 16:14, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

That was fast lol! Thanks! —valereee (talk) 11:42, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion

I think that the template on this page should be setup auto archiving instead of setup cluebot archiving. I tried cluebot and made a complete meal of it. When I switched over to lowercase bot, everything changed. I think this page should have the lowercase sigma bot template instead with archives = yes it is so much easier for newer users like me to use. Thanks Blanchey (talk) 10:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Blanchey, See the comment above, the main archiving page says lowercase sigmabot III won't archive sections that don't have a signature. I've seen that multiple times, sections ten+ years old that have never been archived because the section wasn't signed, so there's always a section or two on top of the page that are from newbs, often from cranks. And no one at the talk even realizes how old they are, because they weren't signed. That seems like a huge downside. The only listed downside for cluebot is it can take several days to do the first archive, which doesn't seem like an issue, and that it doesn't work for pages that are linked to by thousands of other pages, which isn't an issue for probably all but a very few pages. I think we should stay with cluebot as the default— Qwerfjkltalk 10:51, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Maybe we could add both templates so people get a choice? I know this page is meant to be simple but people should be able to choose their bot as I didn’t get that option. I had to find it myself. @Qwerfjkl Blanchey (talk) 10:55, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Blanchey, What exactly was the problem you had? It looks fine when you added it here. — Qwerfjkltalk 11:01, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Qwerfjkl It took forever to get started and I will admit I’m not the most patient person in the world, another editor told me I had coded it incorrectly (I don’t exactly know what I did wrong although they are a good experienced user so they probably knew) hence why I changed it to lowercase bot. Blanchey (talk) 11:03, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Meena, can you explain what was wrong with the template? The wikimarkup was

{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis
| age                 =168
| archiveprefix       =User talk:Blanchey/Archive
| numberstart         =1
| maxarchsize         =75000
| header              ={{Automatic archive navigator}}
| minkeepthreads      =1
| format              = %%i
}}{{Archives}}

— Qwerfjkltalk 11:16, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Blanchey, the entire point of this page is to give people a very short copy/paste to use that in 99.999% of cases will work. The main Help:Archiving a talk page how-to is where we point people who want more choices. The fact you even knew there was somewhere else to go looking and were willing to do so instead of just shrugging and moving on without adding an archive means you may not necessarily need this page. :) Valereee (talk) 17:22, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Valereee That’s true, but I don’t think clue bot is ideal. It also created two index pages which carried on coming up on my talk header, making it look scruffy. Sigma bot doesn’t do this. And then as I said, another editor identified a problem with the bots coding and therefore suggested I used theirs briefly and then I found my own settings. Blanchey (talk) 17:31, 31 August 2022 (UTC)