Talk:Resolute desk/GA1

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Reviewer: Usernameunique (talk · contribs) 21:15, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Lead

  • partners' desk — You don't use the apostrophe for the other two uses of partners desk.
  • Second and third paragraphs could probably be trimmed.

Design and markings

  • "skilled carver" — Is this a particular designation/title?
  • It shoudl say "skilled joiner" for each time it references Evenden. Thanks for catching the one that says "carver". Chatham boatyards references him as a "skilled joiner" in the reference and i woudl assue it means he was "a joiner that was exceptionally skilled" not a title. --Found5dollar (talk) 20:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is William Evenden worth a red link?
  • I sadly do not think it is. There is virtually no information about him out in the world. This article contains as much info as there is about him so I doubt a larger article about him could stand.--Found5dollar (talk) 20:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "probably from a design by Morant, Boyd, & Blanford in 1880" — Why "probably"? And does "in 1880" refer to when the desk was made? Is the date certain? If so, I would move to the beginning of the sentence, i.e., "The desk was created in 1880 by skilled carver William Evenden ..."
  • The White House Historical Association classifies the desk as being made "probably from a design by Morant, Boyd, & Blanford". This is because the design documents no longer survive so there is no actual proof of the designers. I have re worked the sentence to make it clearer.
  • "There are sets of drawers behind the cabinet doors" — How many sets? Is each side symmetrical? What are cabinet doors?
  • this is where I run up against what needs to be sourced vs. what doesn't. The reliable sources only say that there are doors and behind those doors are drawers. I can base the rest of what is in there off photographs but that isn't a secondary source. Cabinet doors are doors that face the front of a cabinet, or small built object for storing items. Happy to remove the word "cabinet" if that is confusing.--Found5dollar (talk) 20:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Grinnell desk" — The article inconsistently uses "Grinnell desk" and "Grinnell Desk". I realize it's a redirect, but is it worth its own article?
  • What are lock plates?
  • What does "BY ROYAL / LETTERS PATENT / FOUR LEVERS / SAFETY LOCK / COMYN CHINC & Co." mean?
  • That the locks were likely made by Comyn Chinc & Company, are four lever safety locks, and that the design was patented. Unfortunately I do not have a source that spells that out so I just left it as is for the reader to compare to the other stamped marking. Basically shows that Morrant did not design the locking mechanisms. --Found5dollar (talk) 20:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "at some point" — Any further details?
  • "A photo taken on January 20, 1993 ..." — This seems out of place. Shouldn't it go at the end of "Use as a presidential desk", if it's even needed?
  • the source says " At some point the brass plate on the back of the desk was moved to the front, i.e. the President’s side, since it is visible on the JFK photograph, but is on the front in later photographs from President Reagan onwards." Basically since the top of the desk can be removed the orientation of the plaque can change at will. There is no date associated with this change. I re wrote this sentence and the last paragraph to make it more obvious what I am getting at with it and the "A photo taken on January 20, 1993 ..." section.--Found5dollar (talk) 20:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Modifications

  • "a safe placed in the kneehole" — Any idea what he kept in there? Did any other presidents have a safe there also?
  • Again, there isn't any source I've found that says what was kept there and it was only 3 years under Truman that the desk stayed where it was before the renovation of the building and the desk moving to the broadcast room. That doesn't leave much time for others to put a concealed safe there.--Found5dollar (talk) 21:04, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The panel was designed by White House architect Lorenzo Winslow and constructed out of hard oak by Rudolph Bauss in 1945" — Are Winslow/Bauss worth red links? Surely Roosevelt didn't wait to the end of his presidency to request the panel?
  • i added a red link to Winslow as a quick google search brought up alot of info on him. Bauss pulled up nothing. I do not have a date for when he requested the panel. ill keep lookign but reliable info on this desk is suprizingly hard to find.
  • What's the purpose of having the panel be able to open?
  • You might want to mention the symbolism of the seal's change, which, randomly, I happened to read about earlier today here.
  • Was the 1986 plinth higher than the 1961 plinth?
  • Because before Regan the plinth was not always used. This can easily be traced through looking at images but I haven't found a source explicitly stating that. Regan was tall so he used the plinth and they built him a new one.--Found5dollar (talk) 12:47, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • But why build a new one instead of just using the 1961 plinth, if they were the same height? Was it that a) Reagan needed a plinth, and b) there was an issue (not related to height) with the 1961 plinth? --Usernameunique (talk) 07:40, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sources just don't get into this unfortunately. My honest assumption is that the plinth was either lost or thrown away during the JFK tour and stint in the Smithsonian (the plinth does not appear in the pictures of the desk from this time) but this is pure speculation. No source that I have found gets to this detail of the plinth.--Found5dollar (talk) 21:20, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • As currently written, it's a bit misleading. It sounds as if the replacement was needed because the old plinth was not up to the task—which would make sense if the new plinth was taller than the old plinth. Based on what you've just said, however, it sounds as if the replacement was needed because the old plinth was missing. JFK was only one inch shorter than Reagan (according to a quick Google search), so presumably he wanted the plinth for the same reason. Is there a source that says that? If so, you could mention the reason for the plinth earlier (e.g., "In 1961, during the John F. Kennedy administration, a plinth was installed to elevate the kneehole, permitting the 6-foot-2-inch-tall president to sit more comfortably. The plinth was replaced in 1986, under the Reagan administration.") --Usernameunique (talk) 21:52, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

HMS Resolute

  • "After scandalous, unfounded reports" — Such as?
  • changed to say they "set out" instead fo "were sent out"
  • "Britain's then First Lord of the Admiralty stated that "We are fast drifting into war with the United States"." — May as well name/link the actual person. Also, you don't seem to be following logical quotation in the rest of the article, and in any event, given that this appears to be a full sentence, shouldn't the period be inside the quotation marks?
  • Is Henry Hartstene worth a red link? Why was he chosen to captain the ship?
  • "as part of comments about the ship" — In what setting did he make the comments? A speech? Letter?

Design and construction

  • Any images of the other proposed designs?
  • Yes, two are held by the Royam Museums greenwich and they claim copyright over them with "© Crown copyright. National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, London."[1][2] I don't think they can claim copyright but that gets a bit to over my head. they may be claiming copyright on the scans of the items which could be valid. This one [3], found in a copy of The Builder from 1881 is out of copyright but will take some time and effort to piece together as it spans two pages and I'd need to photoshop it back together.--Found5dollar (talk) 03:03, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is George Morant worth a red link?
  • Is Morant, Boyd, & Blanford worth a red link? Also, the article is inconsistent in using "&" vs. "and".
  • Added a redlink to George Morant as Morant, Boyd, & Blanford woudl probably redirect to that. changed all "and" to "&" except for direct quotes.
  • "The National Maritime Museum holds the plans" — By the same firm? Are these the plans for the engraving seen in Frank Leslie's Illustrated Newspaper? They don't look particularly similar, but maybe I'm just missing something.
  • yes, they are for the same table design. The Maritime drawing is much more crude and the prerspective is off, but you can see, and read about, portraits of both Victoria and Hayes and the side panels arctic scenes.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "President Hayes" — Not yet introduced. I assume he was the current president? Worth mentioning.
clarified.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:17, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Eventually, Queen Victoria ordered" — Any idea when?
  • "Evenden was a skilled joiner working in the Joiner's Shop" — Above, you said skilled carver. What is the Joiner's Shop?
  • fixed above. added a wikilink to joiner to clarify. A Joiners shop is where joiners work.
  • "while the other" — Was he an older brother?
  • I would assume that but I don't know. There is only one source i have been able to find that says anything about Evenden and it says "the younger brother Frederick James become a Master Shipwright and Naval Architect in Devonport and his other brother George Jonathon a Mining Pioneer and Magistrate in Thornborough, Queensland, Australia." Without clarity in this source I can not definitively say the other brother is older.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:11, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Arrival in America

Use as a presidential desk

  • "Hayes ordered the desk be taken upstairs to his office on the second floor" — When?
  • "President's Office" is inconsistently referred to as "Presidential Office", "presidential office", and "President's Room". Also, does it refer to a particular room, or just to whichever room was being used as the main office at the time?
  • This all stems from the fact that rooms in the White House never had official names. They were called by what they were used for for each individual president. "Presidents Office" was the official title for the room the desk was in under William McKinley, "presidential office" is a description of the Oval office, and "President's Room" was the name of the Lincoln Bedroom when it was in use as an office for Roosevelt, and "President's Office" was the suit of rooms including the Lincoln bedroom where the president worked before the workings were moved to the West Wing.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:36, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where was the desk between 1948 and 1952?
added a paragraph about where it was stored and updated the list.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:36, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is Charles T. Haight worth a red link?
  • "The large desk which was originally in the President's Study." — Whose words?
  • "The press release explained" — The press release explained it, or the New York Times article did?
Added--Found5dollar (talk) 21:20, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When it visited Boston, 45,000 visitors were estimated to have visited in a single day." — visited/visitors/visited in the same sentence is a bit much.
  • reworded as "When it traveled to Boston, 45,000 visitors were estimated to have viewed the desk in a single day."
  • What was the first Carter desk? The Johnson desk?
  • What is a "Residence Office"?

The "Residence Office" is the office the president uses in the residence part of the White House. A less formal workspace than the Oval Office down stairs. It isn't the name of a particular room, it is the name a room gets when the president uses it as an office.

  • "original framed commissioning papers for Resolute" — For the ship, or the desk?

added "HMS" to clarify.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:36, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Not sure the Obama "controversy" is worth mentioning. At the very least, it's a pretty weak source to use for it. Meanwhile, wasn't Obama's gift to Brown a box set of DVDs, and didn't that cause a bit of controversy (historically important items on the one hand, some DVDs on the other)? Might be worth mentioning that one.
  • I think the Obama dust up is worth mentioning because it is explicitly about the desk and what it represents to people. The exchang eof gifts i dont think is worth mentioning because the desk is only tangentially related. I have beefed up the source for the "controversy".--Found5dollar (talk) 15:36, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Worth finding a photo that shows both the pen holder and the call button?

Other items made from HMS Resolute

  • "According to letters listed in Volume 40 of the Parliamentary Papers, two "memorial tables" made out of timbers from the Resolute were announced" — Did the letters do the announcing, or did the letters say that an announcement had been made?
  • Grinnell desk — This should be bolded in the lead, not here. Is there an available image of the desk?
  • It should be bolded here and not in the lead. Per MOS:BOLDREDIRECT we should follow the "principle of least astonishment" here. Grinnell desk pipes to this section so the name should be bolded here as if it is the article for this desk. If the redirect took you to the top of the article it would be a different story. Secondly i would love to add an image of this desk to the article but there are no free ones available online. Since it is on public display fair use for any of thos eimages is not possible. I hope to get to the Whaling museum myself to get a pic someday but until someone goes to take an image we cant add one.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:18, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is beyond the scope of the review, but you might email the museum and see if they'll license an image. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:55, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Peter S. Grinnell" — What's his relationship to the family? Son? Grandson?
  • Is there an available image of the table?
  • "in a description of the furniture made from the Resolute at the New Bedford Whaling Museum, a docent suggests it is possible that a fourth desk was built as well" — This is vague. Who is the docent? Where does the description appeal? Where does the information come from?
  • Any more information about the potential Jane Franklin piece?
  • So I don't actually think that there are any other desks besides the three. The issue is that some reliable sources suggest there may be more. I think the Jane Franklin pice is just bad scholarship as i cant find any reference to it elsewhere except for thins referencing this book. i clarified who the docent was and his quote. I think that the few sentences of the concept that another desk my exist is more than enough.--Found5dollar (talk) 17:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Replicas

  • Any more information about Robert C. Whitley? Why was he chosen? Worth a red link?
  • This, which is hardly a reliable source, says, "Robert Whitley having made several important historical reproductions for Independence Hall, George Washington’s headquarters, and Franklin Court, was commissioned by the John F. Kennedy Library and Museum in Boston to make a copy of The Resolute desk for public display." ill keep looking for a reliable source that says as much but there is very little reliable stuff out there about this.--Found5dollar (talk) 17:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any more information about the carving of the other five presidential library replica desks?
  • I could probably find more but I think that the first one is really the only notable one. This section on reproductions is already very long and i don't want it to have undo weight.--Found5dollar (talk) 17:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Usernameunique: I believe I have addressed all of your concerns! please let me know if there is anything else you see that needs to be worked on.--Found5dollar (talk) 17:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Usernameunique: Just checkign back in to see if you have any other concerns!--Found5dollar (talk) 13:04, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reminder, Found5dollar. I'll try to get to this in the next day or two—haven't had that much time recently. But as voluminous as the comments above may be, I do think the article is in pretty good shape. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:22, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Found5dollar, just a couple more comments above. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:57, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Usernameunique: I think ! covered all your remaining notes. Please let me know if you see any other issues.--Found5dollar (talk) 21:20, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Found5dollar. I've left a note above, but passing now. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:52, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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