Talk:Malmsmead

Devon or Somerset?

This article starts:

Malmsmead is a hamlet in the civil parish of Oare in the North Devon district of Devon, England.

Following the link to Oare leads to an article starting:

Oare is a village and civil parish on Oare Water on Exmoor in the West Somerset district of Somerset, England.

Clearly something wrong here. I've checked the Ordnance Survey maps, and they are confused too. The Landranger (1:50000) puts the Malmsmead label on the Devon side of the river. The Pathfinder (1:25000) shows it on the Somerset side. Google searches yield similar confusion.

Does anybody know if there is a correct answer to the question, or is this just a place whose definition is a bit blurred and can be thought of as being in both counties.? -- chris_j_wood (talk) 12:14, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

The definitive map for local authority boundaries is MAGIC (see http://magic.defra.gov.uk/home.htm). You can select all sorts of designations from the list on the left which then show on the map. Having turned on "Counties, Metrolitan Districts and Unitary Authorities" and "Parishes" a red line appears going through Malmsmead, following the river. Malmsmead Bridge spans the divide. Lorna Doone Farm, Meadow View & Car Park are on the west (Devon) side (Brendon parish) and Parsonage Farm, The Old Rectory are on the east (Somerset) side (in Oare). I think the problem is in the definition of Hamlet, which doesn't have any official designation.— Rod ^talk 09:17, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

I have attempted to clarify this in the article.— Rod ^talk 09:48, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

I am not convinced that Malmsmead is even partially in Somerset: The westernmost building on the Somerset side is Oare Village Hall. The placement of the label "Malmsmead" on the eastern side of the river on the 1:25k scale map could simply be a question of space.--Nilfanion (talk) 13:35, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

West Somerset council seem to think Parsonage Farm is in their areas (see here).— Rod ^talk 14:13, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Also Historic England has two entries for Malmsmead Bridge. This which says one end is in West Somerset and this for the North Devon end. The Exmoor Historic Enviornment record combines them into one entry here.— Rod ^talk 14:48, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

The fact Malmsmead Bridge is split for listing purposes is standard practice, and says nothing about the extent of Malmsmead itself. Its the same situation as Southwark Bridge - that listing doesn't say Southwark is partly north of the river, merely that part of Southwark Bridge is.

The question is not are Parsonage Farm and the Old Rectory in Somerset, but are they in Malmsmead? They are clearly in Oare CP. The Old Rectory and Parsonage Farm (above) are both described as being in Oare, without mention of Malmsmead. Oare Village Hall and Oare Water Cottage are also in this area, their name suggests a link to Oare, and the book ref below says the village hall is between Malmsmead and Oare. From that, there is no indication from that any of those buildings are in "Malmsmead.

Older evidence (eg 1st edition OS) appears to strongly indicate Malmsmead is the collection of building at the west end of the Bridge - wholly in Devon.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:25, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

For that matter, I'm not even sure if Malmsmead even qualifies as a "hamlet" and would like to see that sourced.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:25, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

As I said before I don't think there is an official definition of Hamlet (place) so I'm not sure what would make it "qualify".— Rod ^talk 14:13, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

If you take what our articles hamlet (place) and settlement say as a working definition, the bar is pretty low. Pretty well anywhere with more than one building where people live is a hamlet, unless it is something with a more structured definition (like a village, town or city). On that basis, I think it is self-evident that Malmsmead is a hamlet. Whether it is sufficiently notable to merit a WP article is, of course, a completely different question. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 14:21, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

You could always take it to AfD but generally populated places are considered notable in my experience. User:Jaguar who started the article may wish to comment?— Rod ^talk 14:26, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm certainly not inclined to go down the AfD route. For what it is worth, I've added a cite from an independent source (the local tourist board) which describes Malmsmead as a hamlet. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 14:32, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

If you want a book reference Page 160 of the Rough Guide to Devon & Cornwall calls it a hamlet.— Rod ^talk 14:53, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

I'd say a place is a hamlet if we have sources to say it is (we do here). The bar is a bit higher than "more than 1 building", as nearly every farm has several buildings - that doesn't make them hamlets.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:34, 16 February 2016 (UTC)