Talk:Parental alienation

Changes Must Be Supported By Reliable Sources

When editing this article it is important that references to mental health and psychology meet the WP:RSMED standard, and that for the sections that relate to the legal world, references meet the WP:RSLAW standard. Any new assertion introduced into the article should be verifiable, that is to say, supported by reliable sources.

This article was significantly updated in the not-so-distant past, and is supported by large numbers of recent references. But even if that were not the case, the fact that time has passed since an article has written does not stand as evidence of change. Often it is in fact a reflection of the fact that the matter is largely viewed as settled. If there is a change in the consensus view of mental health professionals, there should be reliable sources available that document the change.

Speculation and original research do not belong within an article, WP:NOT, nor should language be introduced to question properly sourced material based upon speculation that things may have changed. See MOS:WTW. Arllaw (talk) 03:59, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Just because a statement is properly sourced doesn't mean it works well in the context of a Wikipedia article. I'm going to question the properly sourced introduction. In Wikipedia's definition of the word "theory", it explains that in the common vernacular, the word theory implies something is unproven or speculative. When the average person reads "Parental Alienation is a theorized process by which...." anything that follows is going to be dismissed as psychobabble. There may be disagreement on some elements of PA, but I think the scientific community agrees that it is a real thing that occurs in our society. Do we want the opening line to create so much doubt in the minds of people who are learning of it for the first time? This introduction may be properly sourced, but there are many alternative definitions that would work better. I invite the Scientific Community to chime in. Thudpuckers (talk) 09:37, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

If you wish to discuss proposed changes to the lead, it will be helpful if you would start a new topic for that purpose and share your proposed changes in that topic.

If you disagree with Wikipedia's policies about reliable sourcing, that's a policy discussion that is best directed at those who set policy. Arllaw (talk) 02:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Treatment section

I would like to address mrollie's revision of the last sentence of the treatment section. Rather than engaging in editing wars, let's have an honest discussion about the merits of mrollie's revision. I revised the sentence to say A recent program evaluation of a four-day intervention called "Turning Point for Families" found preliminary evidence that the "The Turning Points for Families program is an effective and safe treatment option for families in which severe parental alienation has occurred". It was changed to read A recent program evaluation of a four-day intervention called "Turning Point for Families" found preliminary evidence that the program could improve family relationships in situations where a court finds alienation. The reason mrollie gave for his revision is that my sentence was a little to "pro" parental alienation. Could you please address the following questions about your revision and the reason for it: 1) This is a direct quote from the study. The study does not qualify that the program "could improve family relationships", it states that it is "an effective and safe treatment option for families in which severe parental alienation has occurred". How is it being too "pro" to quote what the study found and explicitly refers to as "practitioner points?" 2)Likewise, it does not mention "situations where a court finds alienation". Why was this added? 3) Most important, the two paragraphs of this section are almost entirely anti parental alienation theory in nature. It refers to "quack therapy" , substandard research models, claims of harm done by treatment programs etc. If it is acceptable to include all of this in the article, why is it "too pro" to accurately report what Harman's research actually says about the safety and effectiveness of the program. I suggest that my revision is totally appropriate and merely provides a balance to the claims that are made against treatment options. It does not take sides or promote either side of this issue. If anything, the rest of the section needs serious revision for its unbalanced perspective. I humbly request that you restore my revision. I thank you in advance for your handling this request with intellectual integrity. Thanks. Devoted Parent (talk) 21:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

You seem to be looking for a false balance. In cases like this where the scientific mainstream doesn't accept the condition, we're not supposed to be trying to find a balance - we're supposed to be reflecting the mainstream view. MrOllie (talk) 21:41, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

You say "the scientific mainstream doesn't accept the condition". Of your long and impressive list of references, do ANY of them state PA doesn't occur? Do any of them contend that PA doesn't exist? It may be true that there is a good deal of debate as to PA being a diagnosable mental condition, (I don't know what that has to do with anything.) and it is true that we do not have the ability to accurately measure certain elements of PA. But none of these things refute the existence of PA. The argument of PA being a syndrome and issues of how it can be used or misused in the courts is part of the story that needs to be told. But your article incorporates them into the definition of PA in such a way as to imply Parental Alienation is a hoax. It is not. And btw, you completely omitted the absolutely devastating effect it has on the alienated parents. Instead, you implied they could be child abusers using the claim of PA as a means to re-establish contact with their kids so they can continue abusing them. Thudpuckers (talk) 16:51, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

We follow the reliable, mainstream sources, not your personal opinion of what the 'story that needs to be told' is. MrOllie (talk) 04:15, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Don't be smug. Your "reliable, mainstream sources" have misdirected you. Sure, Dr. Harmon's story about the child abuser using Parental Alienation to win custody of his kids is a compelling, tragic story. And it's true, allegations of Parental Alienation can be misused in court by people with nefarious intentions. That's on the courts to figure out, and eventually they will. You can point out that the scientific community is undecided as to whether or not Parental Alienation is a Syndrome, or that it hasn't been proven to be a diagnosable mental disease, (For that matter, it hasn't been proven to cause cancer either.) You can point out that there isn't reliable data to substantiate the long-term effects on the kids or that there is no method of quantifying certain aspects it. All of these things can be true. But NONE of them disprove the existence of Parental Alienation. That is the part you apparently don't get. Thudpuckers (talk) 22:23, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

The part you don't seem to get is that Wikipedia is simply a summary of the sources that meet its sourcing requirements. Our hands are mostly tied here, if the sources are 'misdirecting' then so to will be the Wikipedia article, that is how this site is designed and it is what our content policies require. MrOllie (talk) 22:39, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your quick response. A review of the scientific, legal and mental health literature (that is not cherrypicked) actually demonstrates that the mainstream scientific community does accept the condition. It is taking sides to present it differently. Therefore, it is very appropriate to present a balanced picture and report accurately what each opinion actually claims. Also, you did not respond to my questions about changing the quote of the study. Devoted Parent (talk) 22:00, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

You added to the article claims about this study and a prior survey of literature that failed verification. I am willing to assume that the errors were not intentional, but it is important that material be presented accurately. Finding references requires reading past a summary on an advocacy website or the abstract of an article -- it requires review of the actual article content.

The quote, "The Turning Points for Families program is an effective and safe treatment option for families in which severe parental alienation has occurred" is not a quote from the study. It is from a pair of "practitioner points" presented along with the study on the Wiley website. The text of the study explains, "Acceptance into the TPFF program is only by court order or by a settlement agreement that must be approved by the court." The article explicitly states that "TPFF makes the assumption that the court" has found that parental alienation has occurred.

As things presently stand stand, the study Harman produced about Turning Point for Families is a small, retrospective study, not controlled, conducted by an advocate for this type of program as opposed to a truly independent auditor, which is of dubious value by WP:RSMED standards. The study describes itself as "preliminary" (both within the content of the article and in the abstract). See, e.g., the RSMED content on weight, bias, caution with regard to use of small-scale studies, and the benefits of independent sources.

This is not a new topic, nor is this the first treatment program that is designed to address "parental alienation"; it is up to those who advocate the theory of parental alienation to conduct better research and build a larger consensus for their theories; as MrOllie explained, it is not the role of Wikipedia to create a false balance. Arllaw (talk) 14:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the subject of false balance, there needs to be a separation between the definition / existence of Parental Alienation and the debate of whether or not it is a syndrome or a diagnosable mental condition or issues of how it is used/misused in the court system. By and large, the scientific community does not refute the existence of PA. And yet because of the way this article is written, a casual reader would get the impression that it is largely unproven. Thudpuckers (talk) 05:21, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to write letters to the scientific community proposing they draw such a distinction in their writings, which we could then use as a source. But we cannot simply do such a thing on Wikipedia, it would be a violation of one of our core policies: WP:NOR. MrOllie (talk) 14:12, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's stated policy, anyone can make changes to an article. (With the exception of changing a quotation of a published piece.) It doesn't require changes to have references.

In this case, I omitted the word "theorized" from the opening statement. My reasoning is simple. To the scientific community, the connotation "theory" means "an explanation of". But when the average person sees "a theoretical process by which..." in the opening statement, they go into defense mode, expecting to hear about something that only exists in fantasyland and/or movies.

MrOllie, you are a bot. You don't understand the finer nuances of communication, which, in a subject as human as Parental Alienation is, are crucial. Your claim to be the spokesperson for the mainstream scientific community in this instance is hollow. Please reinstate my change. Thudpuckers (talk) 19:36, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't require changes to have references. You have greatly misunderstood Wikipedia's policies, because sourcing is absolutely required. Read WP:NOR and WP:V for starters. Personal attacks are not going to get me to support your proposed changes - only reliable sources will. MrOllie (talk) 19:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Arllaw writes "You added to the article claims about this study and a prior survey of literature that failed verification". I do not know what you are referring to that I made claims about this study that are not verifiable. The study states over and over again exactly what I wrote about it. The Abstract of the study states: "This preliminary evidence indicates that TPFF, similar to other therapeutic structural interventions, is a safe and effective treatment option for severely alienated children". On page 3 & 4 of the study it states: "Although there is also limited research on outcomes for programs designed to treat severe parental alienation, evidence so far does not support the argument that existing programs are ineffective. For example, two outcome studies of the Family Bridges program indicate that between 75% and 95% of children overcame their alienation after participation (Warshak, 2010, 2019), and an initial evaluation of the Family Reflections program found a 95% reunification success rate after 12 months post-intervention for twelve families (22 children; Reay, 2015). Reunification success rates are an important indicator of program efficacy, but they do not directly address critics’ claims about these structured parental alienation intervention programs being ‘unsafe’ or ‘traumatizing’ to the children. Self-report measures from Family Bridges participants indicate that the majority of children rated their experience as positive and they also rated the workshop itself as good or excellent (only 8% rated it as poor), and outcomes from the Family Reflections program are not reported to be ‘traumatizing’ for the children (Reay, 2015). There is not yet any empirical evidence to support allegations that the programs pose safety issues for children. The purpose of the current study was to examine whether another therapeutic treatment program for severely alienated children, Turning Points for Families (TPFF), is safe, does not cause harm". Page 6 states: "6The purpose of this study is to examine whether the TPFF program is effective in supporting the repair and positive relationship between the alienated child(ren) and alienated parent, and to test whether participation in the program is safe and not harmful to the child(ren) as alleged by critics such as Mercer (2019)". Finally, page 15 states: "We found support for the first hypothesis that was tested, which was that the TPFF program would be safe for children". Page 17 concludes: "While this evidence is preliminary, the program was not found to be unsafe for severely alienated children and appears to be effective in doing what it was designed to do: ‘jump-start’ the reunification process with the alienated parent. With continued compliance with court orders and effective aftercare, TPFF is another viable and effective structured therapeutic intervention for families where severe parental alienation has occurred". I again request that my revision be restored to reflect the actually findings of the study without watering it down. The reader of the wiki article can decide if they want to accept the validity of this study. It is not for wiki editors to dismiss bona research just because it does not support their personal views on the topic.Devoted Parent (talk) 22:05, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

If you read and understood the study before adding content to the article, then you know that what you added is not consistent with the study, you know that a quote you represented here as being from the study was not, in fact, from the study, and you know that your challenge to the description of the article, as presented above, was incorrect. You are making it difficult to assume good faith. Arllaw (talk) 22:57, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

The full text of the Harman study is available for public viewing online. Everything I wrote is quoted VERBATIM from the study and I provided the page numbers to insure verification and transparency. What I wrote is not only “consistent with the study”, it is the whole point of the study. The abstract and study are very clear about the hypothesis that they tested and the conclusions of the research. It is deceptive and fraud to publicly claim otherwise in this forum. My original revision to the treatment section said: In spite of the skepticism of critics, peer reviewed studies have begun to confirm that changes in custodial arrangements in favor of the targeted parent are effective in ameliorating parental alienation and that specialized family therapy addressing the alienation is effective in restoring family relationships and family functioning.[39][46] These studies also found that separating the child from the alienating parent was not harmful to the child.[39] A study of Turning Points for Families program for severely alienated children found it to be an effective and safe treatment option for families in which severe parental alienation has occurred.[46] These studies also emphasize that the success of these programs is contingent upon coordination with family courts.[39][46] I quoted two studies. The second study (which was totally removed) is equally clear in its research design and results. It was only removed to minimize the cumulative weight of two studies. The public has the prerogative to make informed decisions and form an opinion on a topic, but personal opinion does not grant the right to censor or minimize dissenting views in the wiki forum. There is nothing inappropriate with the above revision other than the fact that it gives credence to an opinion some disagree with. I again respectfully request the editors of this article to demonstrate intellectual integrity and restore the full paragraph of my revision in its entirety and to refrain from such censorship in the future.Devoted Parent (talk) 03:03, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

If there is a version of the article that is available and not paywalled, it is not clear why you chose not to add a link to it. You quoted one survey of literature and one study -- you do understand the difference, correct? You misstated both. I am really not interested in expending more time and energy trying to work through your blocks of text. Suffice to say, when you add inaccurate or incorrect content to a Wikipedia article you create work for others, and when you argue about it afterward it adds to the entirely avoidable time suck. Arllaw (talk) 04:27, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

I was mistaken about the paywall; I thought there was open access. Nevertheless, that does not change the content of the Harman article. Nothing was misstated; the abstract and article were reported correctly. The research files and analytics are available on the Open Science Framework. All the quotes are verbatim. I reiterate that it is outright fraud to claim otherwise. I do agree that the word “preliminary” should be added about the Harman study. The second study is not a survey of literature, it is a systematic review (following the Preferred Reporting Items for Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analyses methodology) as is stated in the articles title and is described in detail on page 4 of the article. There is a significant difference between the value of a literature review and a systematic review which any veteran wiki editor is surely aware of. This review was likewise not misstated. Arllaw has avoided the issue of the censorship of my revision and has repeated the unfounded claim that I am not accurately portraying the content of these studies. I am taking the initiative to reinsert my revision into the article. Any attempt to delete it, censor it, or add editorial comments to it in order to diminish or minimize the value of its content (or any future edits to the article that are censorship and/or blatant editorial comment) will be called to the attention of the Wiki Arbitration Committee and a request for disciplinary action will be made. Devoted Parent (talk) 21:36, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

You can make whatever complaints you would like, but you do need to respect that this project relies upon consensus and has standards for what should and should not be included in an article. Arllaw (talk) 02:05, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

RfC Parts of the article state the opposite of the source they quote

The article states: ″The psychological community has not accepted parental alienation as a diagnosable mental condition″ but the linked source says in its conclusions: ″There is almost no dispute among mental health professionals who work with children of divorced parents that PA occurs in many children whose parents engage in persistent, intense conflict.″ ″The inclusion of PA in the next editions of DSM and ICD will facilitate research regarding this mental condition, will strengthen the awareness and understanding of clinicians for PA″. How is it possible? This looks like an abuse of the source. Twilight 15:13, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

• That sounds wrong. Why don't you fix it? Is anyone opposed to the change? --Seggallion (talk) 06:35, 30 May 2022 (UTC) sock puppet of banned user

I don't know, first I'd like to understand how this was possible. Who would find a source, and then report in the article the opposite of what it says? Is this normal or malicious behaviour? Is there a policy against it? Should it be reported somewhere? Sorry I have been away from wikipedia for a long time. Twilight 08:17, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

No opinion on this specific claim, but as for the broader concern – this kind of thing happens often and is a major problem for Wikipedia's verifiability. I frequently check the sources in Wikipedia articles, especially when I encounter a claim that seems surprising, and I often find that the cited sources don't support the claim. Sometimes this is because an editor misunderstood the source, sometimes it is because someone changed the article's prose without adding a new source, and sometimes it's because an editor intentionally added material that isn't supported by a source (maybe because they don't understand or don't agree with the verifiability policy.) If the article doesn't follow the sources, please correct it; this doesn't need an RFC unless others express disagreement. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 09:35, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

The source in question is an answer by PA proponents to their critics - what you're quoting is their objections to the rejection by the mainstream. I'm not the one who added it, but I believe what this source was intended to cite is their admission that their proposals to include it in the DSM and the ICD have been rejected. I replaced the citation with a more mainstream source that makes the point more directly. MrOllie (talk) 11:27, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

The source you replaced it with is about the PAS. There is a separate article about it, this source is not relevant here. My understanding is there is a general consensus in the scientific community that parental alienation is not a syndrome, but at the same time ″There is almost no dispute among mental health professionals who work with children of divorced parents that parental alienation occurs in many children whose parents engage in persistent, intense conflict.″Twilight 13:00, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

That's a quote by a fringe proponent in a non-peer reviewed article. And the source I added specifically addresses the same efforts to include PA in the DSM-5 that the Bernet source is about. In fact the source I added specifically talks about Bernet's position, for example Current proponents of parental alienation, including Bernet (2008) and Warshak (2015), have attempted to circumvent widespread condemnation of PAS by replacing it with parental alienation disorder (PAD) or simply parental alienation. - MrOllie (talk) 16:35, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

The source you replaced it with is about the PAS. There is a separate article about it, this source is not relevant here. My understanding is there is a general consensus in the scientific community that parental alienation is not a syndrome, but at the same time ″There is almost no dispute among mental health professionals who work with children of divorced parents that parental alienation occurs in many children whose parents engage in persistent, intense conflict.″Twilight 13:00, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Ignoring the source, there is big difference between "parental alienation occurs", and "a diagnoseable mental condition". Spots occur, but spots are not a diagnoseable condition. Anger occurs, but anger is not a diagnoseable condition. Happiness occurs, but is not a diagnoseable condition. I hope that helps. Slp1 (talk) 17:12, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) It's one of the problems of including sources in the lead. The idea of the lead is to summarize the article and summaries can be difficult to do elegantly where citations are used/required. For this reason, I prefer to avoid citation in the lead. In this case "the psychological community has not accepted parental alienation as a diagnosable mental condition″ is absolutely correct, and an excellent summary of information and citations in the article. The specific reference cited was published in 2013 by proponents of PA before the latest DSM and ICD were published.[1] The article expresses their hope that PA will be included in the next DSM and ICD ("The inclusion of PA in the next editions of DSM and ICD will facilitate research regarding this mental condition, will strengthen the awareness and understanding of clinicians for PA″). The hopes were not fulfilled, as neither include any mention of PA to this day. Slp1 (talk) 16:52, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

(randomly invited by a bot) A mental condition is not diagnosable if it isn't listed in the DSM. The statement in the introduction is accurate. There is no contradiction. Jojalozzo (talk) 00:00, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

It's not diagnosable under the DSM or the ICD. As for the change, the text of the article remains correct, and the new citation should resolve the question of whether it's properly supported by the references. Arllaw (talk) 16:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm pro-PA, but if there is debate, then leave it out for this reason: There is too much back and forth in this article. Right from the beginning, each paragraph begins with somebody says this, this and that but ends with somebody else saying that, that and this or these guys claim bla bla bla,but it's unproven, or whatever. There's an almost comical rhythm to it. Call it "Ode to the Disfunction of the Behavioral Science Community". Speaking on behalf of the average person, this whole article is a pointless mess. Thudpuckers (talk) 04:46, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• Although some people want "parental alienation" to be recognized as a syndrome or disorder, that has not happened. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/him] 01:50, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Opening paragraph.

Wikipedia is a place for average people to gain an understanding of a given topic. This article begins with "Parental alienation is a theorized process through which a child..... bla bla bla." To the average person, that means Parental Alienation is nothing more than psycho-babble. (The awkward wording of the last sentence in the first paragraph wouldn't pass muster in 8th grade English.) The rest of the article pretty much amounts to point vs counterpoint, confirming the impression from the opening sentence. There's also a section telling people how to use PA for nefarious purposes in court. I understand some claims about this subject are contested. But I think the vast majority of the Scientific Community agrees Parental Alienation occurs and that it can have devasting effects. Yet somehow, that part doesn't come across in any meaningful way. Frankly, I think the whole article needs to be re-written, but for starters, can we remove the word "theorized" from the first sentence? Thudpuckers (talk) 22:46, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

We need sourcing. What you think the scientific community agrees about might be correct, or it might be incorrect. We can only change the article based on reliable sources - we cannot act on personal impressions. See WP:NOR, WP:RS, and WP:V for details. Our hands really are tied here based on what the available sources say. Find us some peer-reviewed scientific journals that support that there is a scientific consensus (not just a couple of single papers who might be a vocal minority) on this and you will see the article change very quickly. MrOllie (talk) 23:05, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) If “vast majority of the Scientific Community agrees Parental Alienation occurs“ then you will be able to provide multiple high quality reliable sources making this point. The fact that PA has not been accepted by virtually any medical or psychological association suggests that you will find this task very difficult. Slp1 (talk) 23:08, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

The mental health community recognizes that people can become estranged from each other, and within that context that children can become estranged from their parents, a form of family estrangement. The issue with this subject is that "parental alienation" is not a mere description of a child's becoming estranged from a parent, but attempts to define a specific form of estrangement in which fault for the estrangement is ascribed to one parent. Proponents of the theories of fault-based parental alienation have not yet convinced the mental health community at large or any major scientific or mental health organization to adopt their theories. Arllaw (talk) 05:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

parental involvement on academic performance

parental involvement on academic performance 112.209.15.203 (talk) 01:28, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you can better explain this issue, and how it relates to the article. Thanks. Arllaw (talk) 22:12, 9 March 2024 (UTC)