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Is there a more accessible example for kh?
I thought that loch was pronounced just like "lock" and that in Chanukah, the C was silent and it was pronounced just like Hanukah. I freely admit that I'm probably completely wrong ... but I think the example needs to be something everyone knows how to pronounce, not two words that not everyone who speaks English would know. --B (talk) 23:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
AFAIK, there is no such word. It seems that any English word with /x/ may be pronounced with /k/ or /h/ instead, and that includes names like 'Bach'. We could say 'like German achtung,' if that helps any. β kwami (talk) 08:35, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's the point. If a given speaker lacks /x/ in their inventory and utters [k] or [h], that is exactly what is meant by /x/. Nardog (talk) 12:06, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, if you pronounce the holiday with an [x], it's not going to matter whether you spell it "Chanukah" or "Hanukkah" (reg. the 'C' being silent). β kwami (talk) 12:15, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As any Scot will tell you, loch is certainly not pronounced just like lock. RESPELL only works for English (in England) and Anglo-American. You can pretend that Loch Lomond is pronounced Lock Lomond, that Lough Neagh is Lock Nay, that Llangollen is Lan-gol-len or even that Cagliari is Cal-e-are-e or even Cag-lee-are-e, but you certainly shouldn't put any of those fake pronunciations into articles. And no, Chanukah is not pronounced Hanukah or even Chan-oo-kah. English does not have gutterals, that's just how it is. --πππ½ (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So you're arguing that loch and Chanukah are not English words? β kwami (talk) 03:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm arguing that Wikipedia should βnot state falsely that lock and hanukah is their correct pronunciation. Maybe somewhere in the body we might report the conventional (mis)pronunciation by English speakers but we must make that qualification clear. The case is significantly different to, for example, Worcester, England. πππ½ (talk) 09:18, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Providing false information is rather at odds with being an encyclopedia. β kwami (talk) 09:24, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops! That'll teach me to be extra careful when editing on mobile. I intended to write "should not state". --πππ½ (talk) 10:43, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I was wondering!
We'd need to mention something if people weren't consistent. E.g. if Gaelic, Yiddish and German-derived words had /x/ for different people, then the premise of the respelling would collapse. I don't know if the people who have /x/ in loch are the same ones who have it in Hanukkah, and if those are the same ones who have it in Bach. If not, then we don't have the regularity that we count on for respelling. But also the /k/ substitution for loch and Bach is at odds with the /h/ substitution for Hanukkah, so the last at least doesn't fit. But loch and Bach might still work. β kwami (talk) 11:21, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia isn't about what's "correct" (to whom?), it's about what's observed in the world. Nardog (talk) 11:27, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do think adding German achtung would be a good choice if the intent is to explain what /x/ is for speakers who contrast it with /k/ and /h/. Double sharp (talk) 04:41, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is not the intent, see WP:DIAPHONEMIC. For speakers who don't have /x/, /x/ simply means whatever they substitute for it. Nardog (talk) 04:47, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I shouldn't have made that suggestion.
If you pronounce thy the same as dye, then for you //Γ°// is pronounced [d]. If you pronounce it the same as vie, then it's [v] -- both common pronunciations. Other words with //Γ°// will presumably be the same. //x// is no different.
As for why comparing it to German is a bad idea, consider the variation of English vowels between dialects. If we were to compare them to other languages, the comparison would only work for speakers of a particular dialect and be misleading for everyone else. Better to say "the KIT vowel" etc., which is essentially what this key does. Same for consonants. β kwami (talk) 04:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if that is not the intent, then I agree with Nardog. Double sharp (talk) 06:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2024
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I request unprotection to this page and to make it golden lock (fully protected) 117.245.36.223 (talk) 07:56, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Β Not done: requests for increases to the page protection level should be made at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Cannolis (talk) 09:02, 16 January 2024 (UTC)